Hydrogen vs. Battery

[hiroshiy]

@JRP3: I wrote those three points based on "after technology development and investment". Think about it - after 10 years from now, is FCV with 200,000 lb or heavier cargo viable? Maybe with some routes with H2 filling stations. EV with 200,000 lb? Maybe, but less possible.

@ggr: If you don't even have NG and you have to import and store, and if you want to survive longer when nobody wants to give you NG?
In such a case, in terms of energy security, just store is not enough. Import and store, less CO2, and in the far far future, generate and store even with much lower efficiency.

 

[Aury]

Hydrogen is an inefficient energy storage solution because it takes so much energy to create the hydrogen in the first place, and then you have to create expensive containers to hold it!

As an alternative to fossil fuel, hydrogen is currently the best solution there is to store energy as back up power.

The only other feasable way to store non-fossil fuel is a water basin, often used by nuclear power plants, but that's not feasable for a hospital for example.

So as far as non fossil energy storage goes, yes hydrogen is the best alternative.

When they find a good organic liquid that isn't very costly, flow batteries would probably surpass hydrogen tanks, since you can easily scale them and they have less maintenance than a hydrogen tank.

 

[JRP3]

@JRP3: I wrote those three points based on "after technology development and investment". Think about it - after 10 years from now, is FCV with 200,000 lb or heavier cargo viable? Maybe with some routes with H2 filling stations. EV with 200,000 lb? Maybe, but less possible.

Maybe more possible, http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ric-semi-truck?p=722712&viewfull=1#post722712 or http://www.wired.com/2013/08/induction-charged-buses/ but the proper answer for heavy transportation is rail.

 

[ecarfan]

Without hydrogen production, a third of the people on this forum wouldn't be alive. You needto make hydrogen gas to make Ammonia, without Ammonia you would have a fraction of the world's food supply we have now. Ammonia is why crops grow the way they do, it's why farmers have fertilizers.
So before you start saying that making hydrogen is stupid.....realise that it's essential to our very existence.

I said hydrogen as an energy storage medium is a nonsensical way to power a vehicle via a fuel cell. I said nothing about other uses of hydrogen. Read what I wrote.

 

[Aury]

I know eca, I wasn't referring to you sorry. Some people were talking about hydrogen production a while back.

 

[ecarfan]

Okay, my apologies then.

Suggestion: if you make a post that is in reply to a specific post made by someone else, quote that post in your reply post so there is no confusion.

 

[Tedkidd]

Show of hands, who here has any intention of buying a hfcv in the next 5 years? Any going to WALK the talk? State when, I'll mark it in my calendar.

Are issues getting conflated? Who knows what opportunities hydrogen will offer? None of us. Is this the debate? I don't think so.

Isn't it likely commercially viable use for hfc stationary power will occur LONG before the hfcv? Wouldnt this be a critical dependency of moving it to vehicles? Doesn't this seem like process sequence disorder?

Wouldn't it be logical to let the technology develop without tying it to a crippled horse? Figure out how to solve many of the problems of production, fuelling and efficiency before rolling out a consumer product?

 

[MacroP]

Without hydrogen production, a third of the people on this forum wouldn't be alive. You needto make hydrogen gas to make Ammonia, without Ammonia you would have a fraction of the world's food supply we have now. Ammonia is why crops grow the way they do, it's why farmers have fertilizers.

So before you start saying that making hydrogen is stupid.....realise that it's essential to our very existence.

That's all good and well but people are the discussing the viability of managing the hydrogen infrastructure for EV's not its use in making fertiliser - use it for what it's good for I'd say. Sure it is easy to extract from methane and propane and then combine with nitrogen (processed air) to make ammonia all in the same process plant. I'm sure no one is debating its use in making fertiliser but it only only a step in the overall process from natural gas and the like. This is where hydrogen becomes 'stupid' for a large scale distribution for EV's IMO. If you want to extract the hydrogen part way through the process for other purposes (like EV's) then the game changes. It's a total nightmare to handle outside of the fertiliser process plant. The vessels and pressures involved to transport and store any decent amount is bordering on insane.

The fuel cell Prius being released shortly in Japan will carry a 50 litre tank that stores only maybe a few kilograms of compressed hydrogen at 50-60Mpa just to give the car some decent range. Madness. Let's not start about liquid hydrogen. Imagine the cost of the infrastructure involved in transport and storage if it becomes mainstream. Here in Australia LPG for vehicles is quite popular and the logistics involved with that is big, compared to petroleum based fuels, and the static pressures for that maybe 1.5Mpa on a hot day. Hydrogen can be 40 times higher plus you can't really store it long term anyway - it seeps out of everything over time. You make it - you use straight away.

 

[miimura]

Show of hands, who here has any intention of buying a hfcv in the next 5 years? Any going to WALK the talk? State when, I'll mark it in my calendar.

Wouldn't it be logical to let the technology develop without tying it to a crippled horse? Figure out how to solve many of the problems of production, fuelling and efficiency before rolling out a consumer product?

I mentioned this on another site, but I'll repeat it here.

I looked at the hydrogen fueling station locations "in development" in my area and the routes I tend to drive. I found that it would actually work for me to drive a FCEV because the locations were close enough to my workplace and my wife's workplace to be convenient. We actually used to go more out of our way to save 10c/gal on gas. In addition, the only long trips we tend to take from our home in the Bay Area are to Tahoe and LA. They have planned fueling stations in Sacramento just off I-80 and in Truckee, so Tahoe is covered. They also have a station planned for Coalinga, so that will bridge the gap between the Bay Area and the LA Basin. By those measures, their plans are better than the DCFC plans for non-Tesla electric vehicles. It is not possible to drive between the Bay Area and LA using CHAdeMO or SAE Combo today. There are grants in process for installing fast chargers along I-5 and Hwy-99, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Anyway, to your actual question, no I won't be buying a FCEV. I really like the convenience of charging at home with energy largely offset by PV solar and the whole package would have to be extremely enticing to get me back to fueling at a "service station". I think it will be a REALLY long time before there is a car with as much universal appeal as the Model S that uses hydrogen for energy storage.

 

[JRP3]

When I helped oversee the hydrogen and fuel cell and alternative vehicle programs at the Energy Departments Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy in the 1990s, I was a big supporter of hydrogen and transportation fuel cell vehicle (FCV) programs, helping to boost the funding for those programs substantially. But the FCV research did not pan out as expected — some key technologies proved impractical and others remained stubbornly expensive.
So as I researched my 2004 book, “The Hype About Hydrogen: Fact and Fiction in the Race to Save the Climate” — named one of the best science and technology books of 2004 by Library Journal — my view on both the green-ness of hydrogen cars and their practicality changed.

http://theenergycollective.com/jose...ydrogen-cars-can-t-compete-pure-electric-cars

 

[Aury]

http://theenergycollective.com/jose...ydrogen-cars-can-t-compete-pure-electric-cars

Former GM Engineer: Electric Cars Pollute More Than Gas

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/...-engineer-electric-cars-pollute-more-than-gas





The thing with the internet is, is that if you are good enough at searching articles, you will always find ample evidence to support your case.

I can find articles that say EV are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.
I can find articles that say hydrogens cars are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[Johan]

Former Electric-car Engineer: Electric Cars Pollute More Than Gas

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/...-engineer-electric-cars-pollute-more-than-gas





The thing with the internet is, is that if you are good enough at searching articles, you will always find ample evidence to support your case.

I can find articles that say EV are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.
I can find articles that say hydrogens cars are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

In this case likely not since they're both EVs. One with a battery, one with a fuel cell. Current battery tech is better than a theoretical perfect fuel cell. Go figure.

 

[Aury]

The funny thing is that both these people have a book to sell. Everyone who wants to sell a book suddenly has an opinion. And many times the people writing the books aren't involved anymore in the industry to begin with, which means their opinion is often outdated.

 

[ggr]

Without hydrogen production, a third of the people on this forum wouldn't be alive. You needto make hydrogen gas to make Ammonia, without Ammonia you would have a fraction of the world's food supply we have now. Ammonia is why crops grow the way they do, it's why farmers have fertilizers.

So before you start saying that making hydrogen is stupid.....realise that it's essential to our very existence.

I was talking about STORING hydrogen, and using it in transportation. Fertilizer manufacture doesn't store it at all.

 

[JRP3]

Former GM Engineer: Electric Cars Pollute More Than Gas

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/...-engineer-electric-cars-pollute-more-than-gas





The thing with the internet is, is that if you are good enough at searching articles, you will always find ample evidence to support your case.

I can find articles that say EV are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.
I can find articles that say hydrogens cars are great for the environment, I can find ones that say they're not.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Zehner has been thouroughly debunked, so no, the truth is not somewhere in the middle if you're using him as one of the "edges". Since Romm's book came out 10 years ago I don't think he's actively trying to "sell" it.

 

[Aury]

Zehner has been thouroughly debunked, so no, the truth is not somewhere in the middle if you're using him as one of the "edges". Since Romm's book came out 10 years ago I don't think he's actively trying to "sell" it.

Debunked by whom, another blogger or an actual car engineer. You can go back and forth with random bloggers all day. On the internet, everyone has an opinion.

If an experienced engineer with experience in the field debunked him, I would be interested to read. If it's another self appointed blogger with another opinion, I have read too many of those. We need people with actual experience and qualifications to guide us, not random joe who started a blog.

 

[Johan]

Aury, did you hear what Elon Musk and JB Straubel had to say when asked about HFCVs during the Q2 conference call. Yes they are partial, since Tesla is betting on batteries not fuel cells for energy storage, but they are also two brilliant engineers and Musk understands business and the big picture. They are not wrong, believe me.

 

[Aury]

Tesla, Toyota, they both have good engineers. They both took a side in a way. Then there's all the European car manufacturers who refuse to pick sides and are experimenting with both technologies.

The moment you start to champion one technology over the other, you start to lose sight of the big picture, which I think is that neither technology is perfect, and both have up and downsides.

If either hydrogen or pure EV tech were perfect, we wouldn't have this thread and there wouldn't be statements by either company about the superiority of their technology. Neither is perfect, and I think both will find their niche in the market.

It's also not a static market where you at any one point can make a definitive statement, both battery tech and hydrogen fuel cels (and now flow batteries) make progress.

 

[Johan]

If either hydrogen or pure EV tech were perfect, we wouldn't have this thread and there wouldn't be statements by either company about the superiority of their technology. Neither is perfect, and I think both will find their niche in the market.

I agree. And I would be extremely surprised if FCVs will be able to catch up with BEVs for personal transport. For heavy transport and other applications maybe, just maybe, depending on how fast battery technology can progress. Remember that EVs have just started to take off in the last 1-2 years, so a lot will happen in the coming 5 years. One could argue the same of course about fuel cells, but that technology may be made obsolete before it even takes off... by improved batteries.

 

[ggies07]

Tesla, Toyota, they both have good engineers. They both took a side in a way. Then there's all the European car manufacturers who refuse to pick sides and are experimenting with both technologies.

The moment you start to champion one technology over the other, you start to lose sight of the big picture, which I think is that neither technology is perfect, and both have up and downsides.

If either hydrogen or pure EV tech were perfect, we wouldn't have this thread and there wouldn't be statements by either company about the superiority of their technology. Neither is perfect, and I think both will find their niche in the market.

It's also not a static market where you at any one point can make a definitive statement, both battery tech and hydrogen fuel cels (and now flow batteries) make progress.

Nah, this is just a betamax vs. VHS or HD-DVD vs. Bluray thing. EVs will win to dominate the next car tech.