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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Nik
Got there eventually :-)
I'm not sure what counts as a 'standard' solar collector, but the hot-water system on my roof will easily get to 220 degrees C on a sunny summer's day. It's about 6 years old, so not exactly state-of-the-art any more.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Nik
Got there eventually :-)
Yes. The heat exchanger in the hot water storage tank has to shut down well before that (130C/266F, IIRC) to prevent localised boiling.
Anybody come across this guy?
Zachary Alexander | LinkedIn
Seems to be a pretty hard-core H2 evangelist.
Zachary Alexander | LinkedIn
Seems to be a pretty hard-core H2 evangelist.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Here's a couple of presentations from a UK hydrogen filling station manufacturer.
Energy Storage | Fuel Security , Presented at Energy Institute, London
http://www.itm-power.com/cmsFiles/media/ITM_AGMPresentation_140911.pdf
Note the figure in slide 15 of the second presentation - 56kWh per kg hydrogen...
Simple calculations show that gives the FCX Clarity, with its tank of 4.1kg and range of 240 miles / 386 km, CO2 emissions of 291.8g/km on the UK grid. Put another way, confirmation that it takes 4 times the amount of electricity as the Roadster for roughly the same official range (but we knew that anyway).
Furthermore, the specs state it has a maximum electrolising capacity of 50 kg per day (100 is an aspiration), so the maximum number of cars this can fill in a day is 12. The production rate means that continuous power requirements must be over 116 kW.
Energy Storage | Fuel Security , Presented at Energy Institute, London
http://www.itm-power.com/cmsFiles/media/ITM_AGMPresentation_140911.pdf
Note the figure in slide 15 of the second presentation - 56kWh per kg hydrogen...
Simple calculations show that gives the FCX Clarity, with its tank of 4.1kg and range of 240 miles / 386 km, CO2 emissions of 291.8g/km on the UK grid. Put another way, confirmation that it takes 4 times the amount of electricity as the Roadster for roughly the same official range (but we knew that anyway).
Furthermore, the specs state it has a maximum electrolising capacity of 50 kg per day (100 is an aspiration), so the maximum number of cars this can fill in a day is 12. The production rate means that continuous power requirements must be over 116 kW.
Yes, and it agrees quite closely with this paper - http://www.efcf.com/reports/E21.pdf - which states 55 kWh DC electricity per kg.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's why most pro-hydrogen studies (conveniently) ignore electrolysis based hydrogen unless it was 100% made from renewable sources.
They usually stick to local SMR since that is the cheapest, cleanest (again 100% renewable excepted), most probable way to make and distribute hydrogen for cars.
They usually stick to local SMR since that is the cheapest, cleanest (again 100% renewable excepted), most probable way to make and distribute hydrogen for cars.
Someone from Toyota GB PR decided to get involved with this on Twitter. Tweet up if you agree with this post: Twitter
These guys actually sell electrolysis units and tried to play the renewables card, even though they sell to sites and specify must have an on-site power supply of x in the brochure.
But as Doug has said before, it's as if they think renewables = free energy.
But as Doug has said before, it's as if they think renewables = free energy.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Best way to put it is - if it takes $20K worth of PV to drive your EV - to drive your FC it will take $60K worth of PV.
Exactly - perhaps some of you can make these points on Twitter? It's somewhat preaching to the converted here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14979817 The BBC has put out an article about whether fuel cell cars are the future, blah, blah, blah. They've got a Professor Kendall saying H fuel cells will replace conventionally fuelled vehicles with "No emissions whatsoever", and that "Your electric battery car does 60 miles [100km], this does 300 miles. It fills in five minutes rather than five hours,". Also the CEO of Daimler chimes in along a similar line, "For battery electric vehicles, you'll need infrastructure that is probably more costly than hydrogen". Probably...
Personally (with a massive EV bias) I think most of the article is uninformed baloney (as per the usual BBC standard).
Personally (with a massive EV bias) I think most of the article is uninformed baloney (as per the usual BBC standard).
BBC News - Is hydrogen the future of motoring?
Hmm... well after reading the article, it's much more balanced than the video (and than I was expecting).
There is a whole section discussing "Recharging at home" which exactly would have been my response to Daimler's Dr. Z.
To that I would add that I think a home charging station should be considered part of the cost of the car rather than part of some external infrastructure cost. I'd like to see the details of Dr. Z's EV versus H2 infrastructure cost comparison. Home charging means that EVs don't have the chicken and egg problem HFCVs have.
The article also includes a rebuttal to the "fast charge" advantage of H2. However, it ends with the red herring of "Clean energy required". Implying that EVs are only good once the grid is 100% clean renewable. Of course EVs offer a total emissions benefit (compared to ICE vehicles) even with the current grid. As we clean up the grid it only gets better. However, if H2 comes from renewables, HFCVs require three times as much energy as EVs, so it's a comparably poor use of resources.
Btw,
Professor Kevin Kendall, Chemical Engineering, University of Birmingham - University of Birmingham
He's way too invested in H2 to give an unbiased opinion.
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