Hydrogen vs. Battery

[dpeilow]

Not sure who is behind this FUD fest, but Louisa Preston is actually a BBC London news anchor... Maybe the reason the BBC is trashing EVs is because the presenters are all on the books of hydrogen PR agencies?


In this video you can again see a patch of grass next to the station. By the time of the official launch which the BBC covered this past Tuesday, that grass had sprouted a roughly 3 kWp solar panel. That's enough to generate enough hydrogen for one fill up every 32 days.

 

[TEG]

I recently heard that the "California Fuel Cell Partnership" has a working CHAdeMO at their Sacramento facility.

California Fuel Cell Partnership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vehicles | California Fuel Cell Partnership

With the extreme lack of CHAdeMO charging in California, it is a bit disappointing to hear that the Fuel Cell researchers have one that isn't public.
(Or maybe it is a sign that they are testing BEV alternatives?)


California Fuel Cell Partnership - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The California Fuel Cell Partnership is a public-private partnership to promote hydrogen vehicles ...
In January 1999, two state government agencies—California Air Resources Board and California Energy Commission joined with six private sector companies—Ballard Power Systems, DaimlerChrysler, Ford Motor Company, BP, Shell Hydrogen and ChevronTexaco—to form the California Fuel Cell Partnership...

 

[doug]

I'm sure that they need to stay on top of fast charging, since it further weakens their argument to exist.

 

[dpeilow]

Is there a water hose next to it that you plug into the car at the same time?

 

[dpeilow]

More than 1 million fuel cell vehicles will be sold by 2020

 

[doug]

More than 1 million fuel cell vehicles will be sold by 2020

I'd like to see a graph of the different predictions by Pike Reasearch, showing how their estimate of the number of FCVs by 2020 has changed over the years.

 

[dpeilow]

And now here's another: Study: hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will grow slower than expected

 

[VolkerP]

[SARCASM]
ah yes, the technology is superior but prices will remain high. Blame the economy.
[/S]

One problem is not discussed. In 2020, affordable electric cars will be in mass production.

[SARCASM BOLD ITALIC]
That's in spite of economic downtown, erm downturn. The corrupt Obama administration pumping zillions of tax payers dollars into these doomed projects.
Making it even harder to develop and sell low cost fuel cell cars[/S]
[/GOP]

sigh.

 

[doug]

And now here's another: Study: hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will grow slower than expected

I think this article is just finally noticing what we noticed back in April.

 

[Mycroft]

Until they have a cheap source of hydrogen, nothing is going to happen.

The big challenge to giant solar arrays in the desert is the transportation of electricity over long distances. If they built a hydrogen plant next to the solar array, they might be able to create cheap, easily transportable hydrogen.

 

[richkae]

A big solar array may be able to make cheap hydrogen, but transportation and storage is still a problem. You have to use a ton of energy to compress it. Can you push compressed hydrogen through the same pipes that you push natural gas through?

I bet ( totally unjustified by my knowledge of physics, just my gut ) that the energy loss of transmitting the electricity to where you want the hydrogen ( and then making it there ) is less than the energy loss of pumping the hydrogen there somehow.

 

[Cobos]

Yes moving electricity through high voltage wires is pretty efficient at least compared to any form of energy conversion. Transfer is usually losses around 10-20%, while energy conversion might let you KEEP around 30% of the energy.

Cobos

 

[zack]

We need a "cells to wheels" efficiency comparison that's accurate.

 

[dpeilow]

This do?

 

[VolkerP]

Can you push compressed hydrogen through the same pipes that you push natural gas through?

Definitely not. NG contains a few per cent hydrogen. Pure hydrogen will diffuse through steel, dissolving carbon as it goes to form methane, leaving the structure brittle and even more permeable for hydrogen. 100% loss of hydrogen within weeks is the result.

I bet ( totally unjustified by my knowledge of physics, just my gut ) that the energy loss of transmitting the electricity to where you want the hydrogen ( and then making it there ) is less than the energy loss of pumping the hydrogen there somehow.

For high voltage DC lines (>100kV) there are quoted losses of 3% per 1000km of line (~600 miles).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Definitely not. NG contains a few per cent hydrogen. Pure hydrogen will diffuse through steel, dissolving carbon as it goes to form methane, leaving the structure brittle and even more permeable for hydrogen. 100% loss of hydrogen within weeks is the result.

For high voltage DC lines (>100kV) there are quoted losses of 3% per 1000km of line (~600 miles).

To be fair, there are projects already being done transporting hydrogen through natural gas lines. It's just not a pure stream (12% hydrogen was the max quoted).
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/05/tgc-20100511.html
Of course you still need to separate and compress it afterwards (in order to have that 10 minute fueling).

 

[JRP3]

Yes and that takes a good bit of energy, which I've never seen discussed. I know that a home CNG Phil compressor uses over 6 kwh to compress enough NG for about 100 miles of range, and that does not take into account the power used to compress and push the NG through the pipe to your home in the first place.

 

[doug]

I've yet to hear a good reason why [Honda] don't simply fill the Clarity with batteries to create a capable EV. Any ideas?

The fuel cell folks would be royally pissed if that happened.

hmm...
2011 Tokyo Motor Show: Honda Reveals Electric Car Concepts

AC-X concept

Looking suspiciously like an updated version of the FC-X Clarity hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle that's been around for several years, the AC-X instead uses plug-in hybrid technology and is more likely to see series production as a result.

For comparison, FCX Clarity:

 

[dpeilow]

Why do reviewers always comment on how beautiful that car is? I've seen one in the metal. I don't get it.

 

[VolkerP]

Why do reviewers always comment on how beautiful that car is? I've seen one in the metal. I don't get it.

Ah, Clarity doesn't sell because it's ugly? :tongue:
No problem. slash the body panels and make blue light come out of the gaps.