I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what? [Resolved]

[andy92782]

Have the electrician do an actual load calculation and show you the math behind it. I did a rough one and came up with requiring 75A for your existing loads, even without adding any EVSE. If your HVAC doesn't actually specify a full 30A draw, that might bring it down enough to where they thought it was okay to use a 70A feed. You may be stuck with either 120V charging on an existing circuit, or using an electrician who's ignoring the electrical code.

If this is really the case I may have to hit the brakes on the whole thing and try to get my $2,500 back. Being limited to 120V charging isn't acceptable to me.

Upgrading the sub-panel in my garage is one thing, but if I have to upgrade the shared exterior panel **and** the main wire that runs between the exterior panel and my subpanel - forget it. Way too much work. That line runs through two the common walls of my adjoining neighbor's units. Between that and getting the HOA on board, I may as well try to negotiate peace in the Middle East.

Sigh... it's always something.

 

[jimmyz80]

*Collective sigh* I hate hearing about these situations with older properties. The house I grew up in in CA would have had the same problem, and I still have good friends out there who are avoiding EVs for similar reasons.

The load calculation kinda sucks for older places, since it factors in 100% of the first 10kVA (~42A) and then only a fraction of the loads beyond that. So you sort of have more "leverage" on the houses with larger service. For example my place here in NC has 200A service, and I have 125A worth of EVSEs (2x 14-50 outlets and 1x 25A outdoor EVSE). Still meets code even with dual zone HVAC, double electric ovens, electric dryer, etc.

It might be worth having someone check out the feed wire from the main panel, to see if it'd be able to carry more than 70A and still meet code. Then you could just upgrade the breaker in the main panel, and swap out your sub panel with something that has a bit more capacity (both physical and current carrying).

 

[P85_DA]

Between that and getting the HOA on board, I may as well try to negotiate peace in the Middle East.

CA SB209 basically says HOAs have to be on board with your request ..it may not he cheap but they can’t deny ...if done properly you would need to take a $1m liability policy and name HOA as recipient ..I know electricians will do work and not do by code(ie not pull permit ) or follow HOA policy not worth liability to you which is why I mentioned those bad panels ..HOA can assess a mechanic lien on property and start a foreclosure ..if you want to do properly it will cost probably in the $10k range ..I recently replaced a main panel like yours and made agreement among common homeowners to split the 6k cost via HOA fee increase ..but an HOA can’t deny your request per CA law

 

[Cosmacelf]

Gawd guys, there is so much bullshit advice on these forums. Stop scaring people for God's sake.

You guys guys do realize that with a 30A 240V charging circuit, the OP would only use it at night when little else is being used, right? I wouldn't have any problem with putting in a double 30/30 240V breaker on this panel.

If that gets your panties in a twist, there is always the option to pay $1000 and buy a load restrictor for EV charging (DCC Technology - Energy Management System for Electric Vehicle DCC CONDO AND DCC HOME) which will limit load to the EV depending on how loaded the panel is (it monitors panel load).

You could indeed look at replacing that panel with a new 100A or 125A panel. It wouldn't change anything since your breaker feed is still only 70A, but it would give others on this forum peace of mind.

Personally, I'd go with the 30A/240V circuit (you'll have a NEMA 14-30 receptacle, or you could hardwire a Tesla Wall Connector).

 

[electracity]

If could use the wall charger and dial in a lower rate. Maybe 2000-3000 watts. For 98% of people that charge rate will work fine. If you decide later to upgrade service to 100 amps you will not have to change out charging equipment.

Condos in SoCal are going to need to be upgraded eventually to 100 amp service. Your neighbors just don't know it yet.

 

[P85_DA]

there is so much bullshit advice on these forums. Sto

What BS advice about getting HOA approval is there ?? You are telling OP do something out of HOA and risk liability ??

 

[jimmyz80]

You guys guys do realize that with a 30A 240V charging circuit, the OP would only use it at night when little else is being used, right? I wouldn't have any problem with putting in a double 30/30 240V breaker on this panel.

Would it work? Yes. Would it meet code? No. I like the idea of that load restrictor though - I hadn't ever seen those before.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Would it work? Yes. Would it meet code? No. I like the idea of that load restrictor though - I hadn't ever seen those before.

What's the code violation?

 

[andy92782]

CA SB209 basically says HOAs have to be on board with your request ..it may not he cheap but they can’t deny ...if done properly you would need to take a $1m liability policy and name HOA as recipient ..I know electricians will do work and not do by code(ie not pull permit ) or follow HOA policy not worth liability to you which is why I mentioned those bad panels ..HOA can assess a mechanic lien on property and start a foreclosure ..if you want to do properly it will cost probably in the $10k range ..I recently replaced a main panel like yours and made agreement among common homeowners to split the 6k cost via HOA fee increase ..but an HOA can’t deny your request per CA law

You've perfectly summarized why I have no interest in fighting this battle.

My HOA board has three members. One of them is pretty cool. The second one is "by the book". The third one is psychotic. I just knocked on the door of the "cool" one and had a discussion. As I expected, I'm the first homeowner to approach them with this conundrum.

Earlier this year I had another "I'm the first" conundrum with them involving a window retrofit project where one of the windows would no longer open wide enough to meet egress code after being fitted with a smaller frame-in-frame replacement. Getting that problem resolved took months of board meetings, window quotes, city inspectors and back and forth with the property manager. That problem wasn't anywhere near as complex or expensive as this one.

 

[jimmyz80]

What's the code violation?

NEC Load Calculation exceeds the current carrying capability of the feeder circuit. Without his HVAC unit he'd be golden, but unfortunately the load calculation factors in 100% of that load, even if he only uses it for a few hours per day, one month out of the year.

 

[P85_DA]

What's the code violation?

I would just start and end with the 120 % rule on the bus bar and go from there ..however even before NEC code comes in play since this a condo not a single family home I would be more concerned with violating HOA and putting house at risk for lien ..not trying to scare OP if this was single fam house yah i would overload the panel(good one ) as charging would be done at night

 

[Cosmacelf]

NEC Load Calculation exceeds the current carrying capability of the feeder circuit. Without his HVAC unit he'd be golden, but unfortunately the load calculation factors in 100% of that load, even if he only uses it for a few hours per day, one month out of the year.

Bingo. The code is being too conservative in THIS case. The code is one size fits all. I personally would take your "Will it work. Yes." for an answer. YMMV.

Be aware that this is the home OWNER'S personal garage we are talking about. It is well within his remit to expand or modify his OWN subpanel without the HOA's involvement.

I do agree that replacing that ageing Challenger panel with a new one from Home Depot is probably good advice. It would cost about $200 in parts to replace the panel, breakers, and add a new 14-30 receptacle. Actual labor time to do this would be 3 hours tops for an amateur, faster for an electrician.

 

[SSedan]

With the 400amp main panel I would have an electrician look, maybe it will be easy to get that upped to 100amp breaker per condo.

On the electrical upgrade my thought would be see if an electrician feels what you have is a legit fire hazard, pitch that to the HOA, then if that premises is accepted work in upgrades.

 

[P85_DA]

aware that this is the home OWNER'S personal garage we are talking about. It is well within his remit to expand or modify his OWN subpanel without the HOA's involvement.

I bet his HOA considers this common area and requires approval ..either way OP is close to Santa Ana SC I would just get car and charge there

 

[andy92782]

Bingo. The code is being too conservative in THIS case. The code is one size fits all. I personally would take your "Will it work. Yes." for an answer. YMMV.

Be aware that this is the home OWNER'S personal garage we are talking about. It is well within his remit to expand or modify his OWN subpanel without the HOA's involvement.

I have absolutely zero interest in pushing the boundaries of residential electric code. Whatever gets installed in my condo would need to be absolutely, undeniably well within code.

Lots of other people in my HOA have replaced their windows with replacements that don't meet egress code. People were doing it and not telling the HOA despite the window installers telling them they wouldn't meet code. I'm not that guy. I don't need to be the guy who catches the building on fire due to electrical overload, then have someone die because they couldn't get out their egress window because it didn't open wide enough. Chances of this situation happening are like 0.000001%, but this is the United States of Litigiousness we live in.

At this point I'm going to try to get my deposit back. Hopefully I can. I simply don't have the time to deal with this right now, and doing it right is going to take months of back and forth between my board, electricians, city inspectors, neighbors and who knows who else. Life's too short to waste on fighting these battles.

If it weren't for the fact that I'm on a plane to Hawaii tomorrow morning I might feel differently, but I really don't need to stress over this while I'm on vacation, nor do I want to try to remotely coordinate HOA, electricians, whoever...

Man, this has been enlightening!

 

[Cosmacelf]

I bet his HOA considers this common area and requires approval ..either way OP is close to Santa Ana SC I would just get car and charge there

Read the OP's posts. The garages are personal. This isn't a shared garage. The garage is NOT a common area.

And seriously? Charging at a SC instead of your garage? Not only is that more expensive, but it is a PITA.

 

[jimmyz80]

I respect all of your decisions other than cancelling the deposit lol. How much driving do you do? I think you may be surprised how usable 120V charging is, especially if you have any L2/L3 charging nearby for any time you might be in a pinch. We charged my wife's Model 3 on 120V for awhile until the weather cooled down enough for me to do the NEMA 14-50 installation. Wasn't an issue at all. Maybe you can survive on 120V for a couple of years until the other residents run into the same challenge with their inevitable EV purchase, and then collectively upgrade the building electrical. Or maybe one of them will burn down the building first.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Brilliant guys, now we have one less EV on the roads. You've just scared a guy (and probably 20 others reading this) away from EVs. Too hard, too much of a pain to deal with, etc., etc.

I swear, it'll soon become the norm to call in an electrician to change a light bulb. Grumble, grumble...

 

[andy92782]

I bet his HOA considers this common area and requires approval ..either way OP is close to Santa Ana SC I would just get car and charge there

I really wish that'd work for me but it won't.

One of the key advantages - in my mind, anyway - to owning an EV is the convenience of charging at home and rarely, if ever having to charge at a public location. If I can't install a 240V outlet in my garage, I can't do this. The Santa Ana supercharger is only ~7 miles from where I live but that can often be a 30 minute drive given how jammed the traffic here. Add charge time and we're talking the better part of two hours to get a "full tank". No bueno. Ugh.

 

[P85_DA]

posts. The garages are personal. This isn't a shared garage. The garage is NOT a common area

To clarify within the walls is not common area the feed wire to his sub panel is ...I will defer to OP but that is typical in most HOAs that have a shared main panel ..to do work on a sub panel typically needs HOA approval