ICE or EV with a hurricane bearing down?

[RedModel3]

Now after everything is beginning to settle down, perhaps we can look at this situation in a whole new way. What would you do differently the next time you are faced with a similar situation? Here's where I'm coming from. I was hit by a major tornado years ago. No natural gas for 5 days, no electricity for 9 days, no phone for two weeks. (This was before ubiquitous cell phone usage.). During the flood in Nashville we were on water restriction for weeks, and the city came within inches of losing all water treatment facilities. My employer was displaced for seven months. Also, I went to school with a girl who lost her lineman father when he was killed trying to restore power after a storm. The work they do is dangerous and difficult to say the least. Now, multiply that over an entire state, maybe two or three states.

Now, think of the essentials of life. Water, food, shelter. Those of you in Florida are in for a very long haul, but you can make it. You will think of things for next time so you are more prepared. In my case, I made changes in my kitchen, getting a gas stove instead of electric. Of course, now I have a cell phone. I have my own portable, personal water filtration system in case I have to get on the road. These are just a few examples, and of course those of us here are already taking a huge step by having an electric car.

Keep in mind also, especially in light of the news out of Hollywood, Florida this morning about the nursing home, that FPL is restoring power as quickly and safely as possible, and they have a definite plan for how to do it. With so many millions over the entire state affected, they have got to focus on true emergencies. So if you don't have power for your car, sit tight. I'm lucky here, but I haven't always been so lucky, and when I was affected I didn't have an electric car. But I'm sure that at some point in everyone's life you've been without wheels. You can car pool, call a friend or neighbor, see if there is taxi or Lyft service, or bus service, ride a bike, or walk. We MUST recalibrate our thinking to what is a true emergency to life and health. Getting your mother to dialysis is a very important reason for needing transportation; getting to the grocery store not so much.

I haven't seen a lot of complaining here, which is a great thing. I'd like to think that those of us who believe in going electric are just a little more concerned about the overall welfare of people rather than just ourselves. You will eventually get electricity, and networking the info about open chargers is a top-notch thing to be doing.

Best wishes to all and good luck with your recovery from these awful hurricanes!

 

[X Fan]

They jailed the banksters and don't do much "defense" on other continents. So, affirmative.

"defense"--by that definition, FDR should not have allowed "Operation Market Garden"....

 

[abasile]

Admittedly, the following is off topic for EV vs. ICE, but it relates more generally to fuel vs. electric...

You will think of things for next time so you are more prepared. In my case, I made changes in my kitchen, getting a gas stove instead of electric.

This is something I've considered, as we're in the California mountains where there can be wildfires and extreme winter storms, plus the possibility of earthquakes.

However, we at some point intend to get rid of our gas range and replace it with an electric one. Why? For one of the same reasons we own EVs - to reduce emissions and fossil fuel use. Gas ranges emit carbon monoxide and vent fans tend to be annoying to run; honestly, many of us aren't even conscious of the need to vent away the exhaust gases from baking and cooking.

In a disaster scenario, I'll admit that the grid is much more likely to go out of service than the gas lines. However, there's still a possibility of losing gas service. In our case, we maintain camping gear (we like to camp anyway) and usually have several small propane cylinders in reserve, enough for a week or two of cooking with a camp stove. In addition, we have a wood-fueled camp stove that'll work as long as we can find dry twigs/branches to burn. In the winter, cooking on an indoor wood stove is another possibility in many homes here. So, while it'd be more convenient to have a gas range in the event of an electric outage, it's not that hard to plan some simple backups.

Besides that, we're hoping to install a Powerwall which would enable the use of some of our solar energy for cooking during outages.

 

[JRoque]

Hi all. Missed many posts but wanted to jump in and give my 2 cents. I'm in Miami and just had power restored today since Sunday. I can confidently say you want an EV in a situation like this.

The 50 car deep lines at gas stations plus uncomfortable moments were you had to yell at <insert insult here> for trying to cut in line were not pleasant. Many ICE drivers were experiencing "range anxiety", sitting in their cars for an hour or two with the engine (and A/C) off and/or pushing the car a few feet at a time towards the gas station.

I could have traveled to a mall or university near my home and get a charge there but I didn't have to. Shortly after the storm, no amount of driving in an ICE would have gotten me any gasoline. In fact, even before the storm hit there was a huge gas shortage as people bulked up hysterically on gasoline.

I drove about 90 miles during the storm, most of it slowly dodging downed power lines, trees and debris - perfect for an EV. I charged my Leaf off my generator and gained about 30 miles of range. True, if I had used that gas in an ICE car instead of my generator, I could have traveled further than 30 miles. But you can't also run your lights and your fridge if do that so it was best used in the generator.

So, charge your EV before the storm. There won't be a shortage of electricity, waiting lines or unpleasantness then. After the storm, and once the Mad Max/The Walking Dead mentality has set in on others, you will find places with electricity far more often than you can find gas stations - as it is always true, storm or not.

Regards,
JR

 

[montreid]

Exactly; electricity --- a working 240v plug or DC charger somehwere -- is going to be a lot easier to find than gas.

 

[number12]

Hi all. Missed many posts but wanted to jump in and give my 2 cents. I'm in Miami and just had power restored today since Sunday. I can confidently say you want an EV in a situation like this.

The 50 car deep lines at gas stations plus uncomfortable moments were you had to yell at <insert insult here> for trying to cut in line were not pleasant. Many ICE drivers were experiencing "range anxiety", sitting in their cars for an hour or two with the engine (and A/C) off and/or pushing the car a few feet at a time towards the gas station.

I could have traveled to a mall or university near my home and get a charge there but I didn't have to. Shortly after the storm, no amount of driving in an ICE would have gotten me any gasoline. In fact, even before the storm hit there was a huge gas shortage as people bulked up hysterically on gasoline.

I drove about 90 miles during the storm, most of it slowly dodging downed power lines, trees and debris - perfect for an EV. I charged my Leaf off my generator and gained about 30 miles of range. True, if I had used that gas in an ICE car instead of my generator, I could have traveled further than 30 miles. But you can't also run your lights and your fridge if do that so it was best used in the generator.

So, charge your EV before the storm. There won't be a shortage of electricity, waiting lines or unpleasantness then. After the storm, and once the Mad Max/The Walking Dead mentality has set in on others, you will find places with electricity far more often than you can find gas stations - as it is always true, storm or not.

Regards,
JR

What if your ICE is a 4x4 truck? Can store tons of gas in the bed, and get through standing water?

Couple of 5 gallons in the back and you are looking at 5-600 range. With 5 min fill ups if you do find a gas station.

Sounds nice going to the mall etc to charge, but as far as right now I would take certain ICE vechicles over EVs if my family's life was on the line.

 

[X Fan]

Very few gas stations open in Naples/Collier County and folks are getting up at 3am in the morning traveling to adjacent county to find gas.....and then sleeping in line to hopefully find that the gas station is properly staffed to open at 8AM.

EV is the way to go...

 

[Saghost]

What if your ICE is a 4x4 truck? Can store tons of gas in the bed, and get through standing water?

Couple of 5 gallons in the back and you are looking at 5-600 range. With 5 min fill ups if you do find a gas station.

Sounds nice going to the mall etc to charge, but as far as right now I would take certain ICE vechicles over EVs if my family's life was on the line.

Driving any car or truck through standing water is a very risky proposition unless you know for certain the depth, that the water isn't flowing, that there isn't debris at the bottom, and so forth.

Lots of gas in the bed is certainly a solution - but it assumes you already own the storage/gas cans, and can find gas to fill them all when the panic hits (you aren't planning to carry that extra gas all the time, are you? If so, you need to rotate it to keep it fresh and the current blend.)

With Irma, it seemed like almost all the Superchargers were back up within 24 hours of the end of the storm. When I looked yesterday, the only ones still showing closure were Marathon and Fort Myers.

 

[wycolo]

> Gas ranges emit carbon monoxide

Non-issue with properly adjusted burners. In a tiny RV or an Econoline maybe crack a window?
--

 

[KarenRei]

With Irma, it seemed like almost all the Superchargers were back up within 24 hours of the end of the storm. When I looked yesterday, the only ones still showing closure were Marathon and Fort Myers.

Oh hey, yeah, Orlando is up:

Benjamin Marks Sep 15, 2017 2:22 AM

Mike Sep 14, 2017 4:52 PM
This location is now open and only one spot currently available

BTW, concerning Fort Myers:

MB Batt Mobile Sep 12, 2017 7:23 PM
Tesla says open. Just got off phone with them 3:15pm

Apparently a lot of the superchargers never went offline, or were only offline for short periods, but Tesla couldn't communicate with them so they showed up as unavailable in-car. Someone in the Fort Myers area needs to give it a try and write a report on PlugShare so people can be confident in it.

Marathon is the big issue because the whole island went under. The cabinets are elevated, but not by that much, and they still might have flooded (or at least been hit by waves). Plus the challenges of just the basics - getting the roads cleared, getting power back on the keys, etc. It'll be interesting to see when Marathon comes back, because that's pretty much the worst case for a supercharger station.

I'm amazed that Naples came online so quickly, given that it was only a parking lot away from the water.

 

[abasile]

> Gas ranges emit carbon monoxide

Non-issue with properly adjusted burners. In a tiny RV or an Econoline maybe crack a window?
--

I agree that it's important to make sure that the burners are properly adjusted/tuned. One still needs to be sure to run a vent fan, though. Even then, with hours of oven use, and in particular with a well sealed home, there will be pollution inside the home. Our concerns are that we do quite a bit of cooking and baking, most vent fans are either noisy or underpowered, and our relatively modest sized home is well sealed. And CO isn't the only concern; on occasions like Thanksgiving (cold weather here), our home has become fairly humid just from all of the water vapor in the oven exhaust.

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning: Gas-fired Kitchen Ranges (AEN-205) • Department of Agricultural and Biosystems Engineering • Iowa State University

 

[wycolo]

> humid just from all of the water vapor in the oven exhaust.

Life in a sealed terrarium! Since the oven exhaust doesn't work it is time to open some windows, send the guests out on the porch or outdoors to get some traffic going, check that the furnace downdraft fresh air inlet is open, let the door sills leak a bit more, etc - all the things folks with wood heat do without thinking too much about it.
--

 

[ezevphl]

I would want a Hybrid or PHEV SUV with a spare tire and a huge tank.
While the model 3 will be the only car in our family, we also don't have to escape hurricanes in our area..
Why not an EV? because EVs don't have spare tires. Having had a flat recently in my PHEV, which was the first car I've owned without a spare, it was not a fun experience.

 

[ohmman]

I agree that it's important to make sure that the burners are properly adjusted/tuned. One still needs to be sure to run a vent fan, though. Even then, with hours of oven use, and in particular with a well sealed home, there will be pollution inside the home. Our concerns are that we do quite a bit of cooking and baking, most vent fans are either noisy or underpowered, and our relatively modest sized home is well sealed. And CO isn't the only concern; on occasions like Thanksgiving (cold weather here), our home has become fairly humid just from all of the water vapor in the oven exhaust.

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning: Gas-fired Kitchen Ranges (AEN-205) • Department of Agricultural and Biosystems Engineering • Iowa State University

We are also going to transition off of our gas range. It's a relatively minor amount of fossil fuel, but it's something. Also, induction is a better cooking medium than gas. I have a portable induction cooktop that I often use in lieu of the gas range.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

We are also going to transition off of our gas range. It's a relatively minor amount of fossil fuel, but it's something. Also, induction is a better cooking medium than gas. I have a portable induction cooktop that I often use in lieu of the gas range.

We switched to induction several years ago after my counter-surfing Rhodesian Ridgeback learned how to turn on the gas range. If he ever figures out how to turn on the induction range, it won't be an issue since it will only work if the appropriate cookware is on the burner.

 

[ohmman]

We switched to induction several years ago after my counter-surfing Rhodesian Ridgeback learned how to turn on the gas range. If he ever figures out how to turn the induction range, it won't be an issue since it will only work if the appropriate cookware is on the burner.

Now that is an interesting reason for transitioning.

 

[abasile]

Life in a sealed terrarium! Since the oven exhaust doesn't work it is time to open some windows, send the guests out on the porch or outdoors to get some traffic going, check that the furnace downdraft fresh air inlet is open, let the door sills leak a bit more, etc - all the things folks with wood heat do without thinking too much about it.

We've transitioned away from wood heat as well, for air quality reasons. I'm also not keen on opening up the house when it's below 40F outside and some of the neighbors are creating wood smoke.

The bottom line for me is that electricity needs to be the future for many applications, including transportation, heating homes and buildings, cooking, and hot water, for which fuel is used today. At the same time, distributed generation and energy storage are becoming more feasible, thus helping to mitigate disaster recovery concerns.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Here's one article.... google it and you'll understand. Why Burying Power Lines Sounds Better Than It Really Is -- The Motley Fool

Fwiw: Florida has tropical summers, lots of underground acquifers, gets frequent flooding, corrosion is prevalent, etc.

Maybe for Florida but I'm with Karen — we have all underground lines here and power outages are very rare and brief. Lots of trees and lightning but the underground lines are mostly secure. However, my main reason for preferring underground lines is that I don't like looking at them. I prefer my scenic mountain vistas free of electrical poles and lines.

 

[X Fan]

Maybe for Florida but I'm with Karen — we have all underground lines here and power outages are very rare and brief. Lots of trees and lightning but the underground lines are mostly secure. However, my main reason for preferring underground lines is that I don't like looking at them. I prefer my scenic mountain vistas free of electrical poles and lines.

The beauty of the US is that each State has the right to design a system that fits their environment.....clearly, what is appropriate for Colorado doesn't fit Florida. And btw, Iceland has it's own issues, i.e.. their Government just collapsed due to a scandal.

 

[KarenRei]

The beauty of the US is that each State has the right to design a system that fits their environment.....clearly, what is appropriate for Colorado doesn't fit Florida. And btw, Iceland has it's own issues, i.e.. their Government just collapsed due to a scandal.

Our government collapsing is no shock Honestly, I'm amazed that it managed to form in the first place and that it lasted this long. It's a really awkward coalition.

We don't have a winner-takes-all system. Each party puts forth party lists in each district, and you vote for the party. The larger the share of the vote they get, the more of their list makes it into parliament. So you don't have to vote for the "lesser of two evils", you can actually vote your conscience. Because absolute majorities are rare, governments are invariably coalitions. This can be relatively simple when you have just a couple parties with similar ideologies representing the majority, but becomes very difficult when there's a broad spread with a broad range of ideologies, like we had last time. When the coalition breaks, it can go back to attempting to form a new coalition, or straight to a new election, which will shift the ratio of seats between the different parties.

Given the difficulty of forming a government last time, I suspect we're going to get a new election soon.