ICE or EV with a hurricane bearing down?

[TexLaw]

Also keep in mind that power, generators or not, does not ensure availability of fuel. A damaged gas station may not be able to pump. A flooded gas station may have contaminated tanks. Supply trucks still have to get to the stations.

There's no perfect solution, and there certainly is no clear one.

 

[KarenRei]

Data point. Rental car (large car, v6 engine) I was driving last week idling with Air-con on, trip computer was saying 1.2-1.3 litres per hour. Car had a 70 litre tank I think. So 6 hours of idling would be about 10-12% of a tank of gas.

That's an bit low rate of gas consumption for a large car; general rule of thumb is said to be 0,6 litres per hour per litre of engine displacement (so for example, a 3,5L V6 = 2,1 l/h). Cylinder deactivation, maybe? Or just a small engine? Or maybe they've simply gotten idling consumption down (able to keep the engine turning over with less torque?)

Fundamentally, the A/C compressor will use a similar amount of energy, whether it's driven by an electric motor or the gas engine.

It doesn't work like that. An idling engine burns a given amount of energy just simply to keep itself turning over. Furthermore, any power that they provide is at very low efficiency because they're operating in a low-torque power band.

For example, take FlyingKiwi's example. They were burning 1,2-1,3 liters per hour, which is actually quite a good number for a V6. For a car that gets, say, 7l/100km (34mpg) when the traffic actually starts moving, idling is consuming 17,9km of range per hour (11 miles). While a Tesla may use ~3,5kW to get the cabin to a desired temperature, maintaining it is about 300-500W. Let's say the Tesla gets 300Wh/mi (186 Wh/km) - then it's losing 1-1,6 miles of range (1,6-2,6 km) per hour** - an order of magnitude less than the gasoline car. So while the gasoline car may have double the range of the EV to start with, it suffers a lot more than that when idling.

** To be fair, there's also some other parasitic draw beyond the AC. In practice the Tesla might consume double the range per hour idling versus what is listed above. But that's still 1/5th what the gasoline car consumes.

Idling a gas car for protracted periods is also bad for it. There's no airflow over the engine, so it tend to run hot, while the car is in a low power band, so the catalytic converter tends to run cold, polluting more and getting more carbon buildup.

 

[FlyingKiwi]

That's an bit low rate of gas consumption for a large car; general rule of thumb is said to be 0,6 litres per hour per litre of engine displacement.

Your rule of thumb is probably from the 1970s, it is ridiculously high for a modern engine.

Fact #861 February 23, 2015 Idle Fuel Consumption for Selected Gasoline and Diesel Vehicles | Department of Energy
A

Idling a gas car for protracted periods is also bad for it. There's no airflow over the engine, so it tend to run hot, while the car is in a low power band, so the catalytic converter tends to run cold, polluting more and getting more carbon buildup.

They are water cooled engines, with cooling fans on the radiator. They stay well within operating temp parameters. I also call bs on your claim about the catalytic converter cooling off.. If a catalytic converter stays up to temp for 30mins in a parked car, it's going to stay up to temp with a continual heat input from a running engine with no external airflow.

 

[KarenRei]

Your rule of thumb is probably from the 1970s, it is ridiculously high for a modern engine. ... They are water cooled engines, with cooling fans on the radiator. They stay well within operating temp parameters. I also call bs on your claim about the catalytic converter cooling off.. If a catalytic converter stays up to temp for 30mins in a parked car, it's going to stay up to temp with a continual heat input from a running engine with no external airflow.

Whoa, where did this hostility come from all of the sudden? Back off for a second, this wasn't a fight.

Google "idle engine heat -winter". Most cooling air in ICEs doesn't enter through the grille; it comes from underneath the car, ducted by an air dam, using the vehicle's motion to force it through. Coolant temperatures consequently tend to run hotter when the car is idling than when it's driving. A properly working car shouldn't overheat when idling, but it will run hotter. An older car with any of a number of issues can readily overheat after protracted idle while working fine in normal everyday driving.

I first learned of this a decade ago when trying to use my idling Saturn with an inverter to supply power for my house during a protracted blackout. The car had never had heat problems before, and I was shocked when it started getting too hot during idle. I eventually learned that this is actually a common problem, for the reasons previously described. Unrelated: I also learned from the experience that idling a car in your driveway for long periods can still set off the carbon monoxide alarms in your house. Not the garage - the driveway. When there's no wind, it accumulates.

While the engine itself isn't cooled as well at idle, the low power demands simultaneously mean lower temperature exhaust, which is associated with less complete combustion (which means gunking up your engine and exhaust system) and lower catalytic converter peak temperatures. Again, in theory, with a new properly working car, it will be able to maintain the "minimum" catalyst temperature to pass emissions regulations (with the exception of diesel vehicles in cold weather). But the hotter the catalyst, the more thorough the conversion. Furthermore, a catalytic converter which is no longer operating at peak performance may no longer heat up sufficiently at idle to pass emissions. More here, although I could give more technical links if you'd rather.

And again... nothing about what I wrote was intended in any way as an attack on you.

 

[ecarfan]

As Hurricane Irma Nears, Gasoline Is In Short Supply For Floridians — NPR

As Hurricane Irma Nears, Gasoline Is In Short Supply For Floridians

QUOTE:
As Florida drivers hit the road to escape Hurricane Irma, the demand for gasoline has outpaced supply, leaving filling stations throughout the state short of fuel.
"It's horrible, man," said Aaron Izquierdo, who waited in a long line of cars at a Shell station in Doral on Friday. "Just yesterday I was in line for two hours to wait for gas, and by the time we got to the pump there was no gas."
In Gainesville, 60 percent of the gasoline stations were without fuel, according to Patrick DeHaan, senior petroleum analyst at the crowdsourcing website Gasbuddy.com. In Miami, it was 40 percent.
-------------------------------------------------

But electricity is readily available.

 

[Phillip L]

As Hurricane Irma Nears, Gasoline Is In Short Supply For Floridians — NPR

As Hurricane Irma Nears, Gasoline Is In Short Supply For Floridians

QUOTE:
As Florida drivers hit the road to escape Hurricane Irma, the demand for gasoline has outpaced supply, leaving filling stations throughout the state short of fuel.
"It's horrible, man," said Aaron Izquierdo, who waited in a long line of cars at a Shell station in Doral on Friday. "Just yesterday I was in line for two hours to wait for gas, and by the time we got to the pump there was no gas."
In Gainesville, 60 percent of the gasoline stations were without fuel, according to Patrick DeHaan, senior petroleum analyst at the crowdsourcing website Gasbuddy.com. In Miami, it was 40 percent.
-------------------------------------------------

But electricity is readily available.

Also, how much farther away to a safer area will you be without wasting a few hours trying to get gasoline. And again, it would be like hyper-mileing being in a relatively slow moving caravan to safety; so I bet the normal 425 km range in my 85D would in reality become more like 5 or even 600 km range traveling at 30 or 50 km/hr.

 

[Got-EMF]

From personal prior hurricane evacuation experience:
16 hours to go 220 miles.
Wouldn't have made it in the ICE except that it had a 38 gallon tank.
No gasoline along the way.
Not much idling, mostly stop & go.
If you have a manual transmission, you get blisters on your feet from the clutch.
No AC, hope the mosquitoes aren't around and the near 100 temp is quite brutal in a line of vehicles with miles of pavement.

If I ever do it again, I hope I take the P85.

 

[gambit48]

If I knew a storm was coming, I woulda filled up all my cars plus extra cans of gas way ahead of time. Along with water and supplies. The long lines at gas stations wouldn't bother me or surprise me. It's basically Darwinism and I wouldn't count their lack of planning as a factor in this argument.

I'm basically looking at what will let me bug out with the stuff I need to take and give me the best chance of continuing on my journey FAR away from the disaster area. To me, that's still an ICE vehicle. Probably a big pickup with a monster fuel tank (like a F-150) or maybe a minivan. If I really did live in hurricane weather, I probably would go redneck and have a full sized pickup with a moderate lift and possibly a snorkel system. Hypothetically, cuz there's no way I'm moving back there.

 

[David_Cary]

Perhaps we should limit the discussion to people who actually live in hurricane areas. And we will not comment on what we would do if an earthquake hits.

Hurricanes are slow motion. The truly worried are 100s of miles away with zero fuel issues. Texas a little different this time of course.

It bears mentioning that the range on a Tesla will exceed most gas cars in this situation. 500 mile ICE goes down significantly in stop and go. A 300 mile EV range goes up significantly in stop and go. In most scenarios, a fully charged S can make it to safety without a charge. Then it can recharge at someone's house. And you know, no hotel is going to complain about extension cords out the window when a disaster hits.

 

[KarenRei]

Perhaps we should limit the discussion to people who actually live in hurricane areas. And we will not comment on what we would do if an earthquake hits.

Do people who spent half their lives in hurricane areas and still have family there count?

 

[ccutrer]

If I knew a storm was coming, I woulda filled up all my cars plus extra cans of gas way ahead of time. Along with water and supplies. The long lines at gas stations wouldn't bother me or surprise me. It's basically Darwinism and I wouldn't count their lack of planning as a factor in this argument.

You act like everyone suddenly decides to bug out at the last minute for kicks and giggles, and they could have left a week in advance. A lot of people simply can't afford to leave that early - either they have jobs they need to keep earning money at, or they don't have anywhere to go that wouldn't cost them to stay there (or both).

And then we get to a fundamental difference between ICE and EV. It's a heckuva lot more work to keep an ICE tank full rather than an EV. Even if you fill up a week ahead of time to beat the lines, you could be halfway through that or more by the time it's time to leave. Or you're going to the gas station daily to top off - which seems reasonable until you unexpectedly get to the day that there's a two hour wait. You should probably just leave being a couple gallons down . With an EV, unless you wait until the storm has already hit and there are widespread power outages, you're going to have a full tank every morning anyway.

 

[ohmman]

You act like everyone suddenly decides to bug out at the last minute for kicks and giggles, and they could have left a week in advance. A lot of people simply can't afford to leave that early - either they have jobs they need to keep earning money at, or they don't have anywhere to go that wouldn't cost them to stay there (or both).

Exactly. That ER doc who was busy working overnights and sleeping days at the hospital really deserves what she gets for not filling up multiple gas cans and loading her car up. Darwinism!

 

[N5329K]

We (still) get big, sweeping Pacific storms coming ashore in the winter, and the very first thing to go is power. Too many trees, too many wires, too little investing in buried lines and infrastructure by PG&E. Gas stations have plenty of fuel but no way to pump it or charge for it. That's why two five-gallon containers of gasoline live in my garage; enough to go about 500 miles.
Almost had reason to use them once, when a storm dropped 7 inches of rain in a day, flooding the entire Salinas Valley, Highway 1 and dropping the Carmel River bridge into the ocean (where it's never been found). Of course, when the Monterey Peninsula became an island there was no amount of fuel or electricity that was going to get you off it (unless you poured it into an airplane). A big earthquake would probably be the same deal, only the runway would probably be buckled, too.
The gas cans end up fueling the lawn mower.
Hope everyone stays safe in coastal Florida...especially in the Tampa area.
Robin

 

[KarenRei]

It's basically Darwinism

"Darwinism" is:

* Storing cans of highly flammable fuel in your garage for protracted periods of time and thinking it makes you safer.
* Putting old fuel in your car in an emergency (yes, gasoline goes bad).

There was one period where I stockpiled emergency fuel. I quickly realized that it was a stupid thing to do. Fuel should only be purchased when an emergency is on the horizon, unless you have a proper means to store it (aka, not plastic cans in the garage) and a regular replacement schedule (which means "work" unless you have your own gas pump). Heck, there's not even a single "gasoline" - summer blends are different from winter blends (summer blends are hard to ignite in the winter, winter blends go bad quickly in the summer).

 

[N5329K]

"Darwinism" is:

* Storing cans of highly flammable fuel in your garage for protracted periods of time and thinking it makes you safer.
* Putting old fuel in your car in an emergency (yes, gasoline goes bad).

There was one period where I stockpiled emergency fuel. I quickly realized that it was a stupid thing to do. Fuel should only be purchased when an emergency is on the horizon, unless you have a proper means to store it (aka, not plastic cans in the garage) and a regular replacement schedule (which means "work" unless you have your own gas pump). Heck, there's not even a single "gasoline" - summer blends are different from winter blends (summer blends are hard to ignite in the winter, winter blends go bad quickly in the summer).

Fuel stabilizer (used in avgas and that stuff stays good for years) is your friend.
Robin

 

[Phillip L]

"Darwinism" is:

* Storing cans of highly flammable fuel in your garage for protracted periods of time and thinking it makes you safer.
* Putting old fuel in your car in an emergency (yes, gasoline goes bad).

There was one period where I stockpiled emergency fuel. I quickly realized that it was a stupid thing to do. Fuel should only be purchased when an emergency is on the horizon, unless you have a proper means to store it (aka, not plastic cans in the garage) and a regular replacement schedule (which means "work" unless you have your own gas pump). Heck, there's not even a single "gasoline" - summer blends are different from winter blends (summer blends are hard to ignite in the winter, winter blends go bad quickly in the summer).

My replacement schedule is to use it all up over the winter blowing snow! Any left over goes into the Volt in April.

 

[FlatSix911]

Great move by Tesla ... Tesla remotely extends range of vehicles for free in Florida to help owners escape Hurricane Irma

 

[KarenRei]

A couple hours and the Marathon supercharger will be getting Irma's full brunt:

Disturbing that there are still some people left in Key West....

The Marathon Supercharger is elevated, but not by much.

 

[KarenRei]

Naples supercharger in a garage in a mandatory evacuation zone, literally just a parking lot away from the water:

 

[KarenRei]

Tesla Supercharger in Gulf Coast Town Center, Fort Myers isn't in a mandatory evacuation zone, but is two blocks from one:

The huge new Sarasota supercharger site appears to be in a safe location, at least from surge.

Brandon supercharger, same story.

Pinellas Park supercharger, evacuation zone C. Probably not at threat, but if Irma goes into Tampa at high tide, it could be cutting it close.

All others: probably would require a tornado to take them out.