If Tesla is getting killed on AWD what happens when.....

[mattjs33]

I don't really care whether you get your car or not, or have to wait a few months, or buy a LR or a Bolt instead. Your inability to simply WAIT for a product (that YOU want) when they are ready to sell it, is YOUR problem. Telling folks Tesla owes you a car now, or 3 months ago or only on your timetable, because "What, do you want me to WAIT for a car?" implies you have the patience of five year old and don't understand basic business. That's not how this works, and I know enough about business to say so.

I don't have a Model 3 on order, so I don't really give a sh*t. The people that put $1000 down a year ago to reserve one, just might however. I'm super glad you got yours because you're happy, right?

When a person goes into McDonald's for a burger, they expect to get a burger, quick, because that's what McDonald's advertises they do. I'm sure you've done this before in your life.

The customer does not care what McDonald's P/E ratio is.

They don't care whether that McDonald's is currently losing money.

They don't care whether four people at that location called in sick, and it's severely understaffed that day.

They don't care what any of the issues are behind the scenes, they only care about the burger they ordered just now.

This makes you mad maybe, but this is how the buying public operates. It's how you operate. Would knowledge of all the above crises make you more sympathetic to the plight that particular McDonald's is currently in? Maybe. But you still want your burger.

This is what I'm trying to tell you. For all the ways people try to make business seem complicated, it's not. Forget EBDITA and all that crap. Keep it simple. Ultimately what matters most is satisfying your customers. You can solve a LOT of problems on a balance sheet by improving the TOP line. How do you do that? By having happy customers, who will buy again, and tell others to do the same.

Crappy service is a good way to piss off customers. Saying something is for sale, that isn't, is a good way to piss off customers. Even one pissed off customer is one too many. I've swallowed my pride a LOT over the years to keep a customer happy, even when I knew I was right.

These service snafus are going to cost Tesla. It might not be noticeable right away, but they matter. Tesla is hot enough right now that they have gotten arrogant, arrogant to the point that they are jumping folks in the queue to deliver who they think they can get to EASIEST, rather than who was there first. You ever been skipped in line? Did that piss you off a little?

Arrogant is telling folks who put hard-earned money down years ago, for a product you announced with TONS of fanfare, "Hey calm down, THESE people are more important right now because they are spending more". This is going to piss off exactly MORE THAN ZERO people. This is something that will come back to bite Tesla in the ass. Maybe not right away, but bite them it will.

I'm pissed off FOR these people, and I don't even have a car on order. Sorry you're incapable of understanding all this.

 

[MXWing]

@mattjs33

FFS, go buy a Tesla! We need that energy on our side.

Find a used rear wheel drive without software.

You won’t be that far off from 35K given all the extra perks of an LR.

You’ll thank me later I promise!

 

[Gavyne]

I'm pissed off FOR these people, and I don't even have a car on order. Sorry you're incapable of understanding all this.

It all makes sense now, you don't even have a car on order. So you're just pissed off in general, more so than people who are happy to see Tesla succeeding and becoming a legitimate carmaker in this brutal auto industry.

 

[Swampgator]

I don't have a Model 3 on order, so I don't really give a sh*t. The people that put $1000 down a year ago to reserve one, just might however. I'm super glad you got yours because you're happy, right?

When a person goes into McDonald's for a burger, they expect to get a burger, quick, because that's what McDonald's advertises they do. I'm sure you've done this before in your life.

The customer does not care what McDonald's P/E ratio is.

They don't care whether that McDonald's is currently losing money.

They don't care whether four people at that location called in sick, and it's severely understaffed that day.

They don't care what any of the issues are behind the scenes, they only care about the burger they ordered just now.

This makes you mad maybe, but this is how the buying public operates. It's how you operate. Would knowledge of all the above crises make you more sympathetic to the plight that particular McDonald's is currently in? Maybe. But you still want your burger.

This is what I'm trying to tell you. For all the ways people try to make business seem complicated, it's not. Forget EBDITA and all that crap. Keep it simple. Ultimately what matters most is satisfying your customers. You can solve a LOT of problems on a balance sheet by improving the TOP line. How do you do that? By having happy customers, who will buy again, and tell others to do the same.

Crappy service is a good way to piss off customers. Saying something is for sale, that isn't, is a good way to piss off customers. Even one pissed off customer is one too many. I've swallowed my pride a LOT over the years to keep a customer happy, even when I knew I was right.

These service snafus are going to cost Tesla. It might not be noticeable right away, but they matter. Tesla is hot enough right now that they have gotten arrogant, arrogant to the point that they are jumping folks in the queue to deliver who they think they can get to EASIEST, rather than who was there first. You ever been skipped in line? Did that piss you off a little?

Arrogant is telling folks who put hard-earned money down years ago, for a product you announced with TONS of fanfare, "Hey calm down, THESE people are more important right now because they are spending more". This is going to piss off exactly MORE THAN ZERO people. This is something that will come back to bite Tesla in the ass. Maybe not right away, but bite them it will.

I'm pissed off FOR these people, and I don't even have a car on order. Sorry you're incapable of understanding all this.

So you don't have a Model 3 on order? Then why in the H*** do you post on a Model 3 Forum?
That would be like me posting constantly on a McLaren forum while driving a mustang. Go figure.

 

[mongo]

So you don't have a Model 3 on order? Then why in the H*** do you post on a Model 3 Forum?
That would be like me posting constantly on a McLaren forum while driving a mustang. Go figure.

I hit like, but then realized...
I don't have a Tesla either....
But I am waiting for one.
That does not exist, yet
And I can't buy in my state
But I'm hopeful!

 

[mattjs33]

It all makes sense now, you don't even have a car on order. So you're just pissed off in general, more so than people who are happy to see Tesla succeeding and becoming a legitimate carmaker in this brutal auto industry.

Oh, for the love of... come on man.

So you don't have a Model 3 on order? Then why in the H*** do you post on a Model 3 Forum?
That would be like me posting constantly on a McLaren forum while driving a mustang. Go figure.

I used to post a lot on a Koenigsegg forum. So much that I started my own website about them. I'm never in 1000 years going to be able to afford one, what's your point?

I'm an enthusiast, and a student of the industry. The Model 3 and Tesla in general are by orders of magnitude the biggest automotive story of the last few decades. I come here to keep up on things. And then I see people saying stupid things, and it riles me up. Sorry. I'm a passionate person.

 

[mattjs33]

@mattjs33

FFS, go buy a Tesla! We need that energy on our side.

Find a used rear wheel drive without software.

You won’t be that far off from 35K given all the extra perks of an LR.

You’ll thank me later I promise!

You know, at one point I didn't think I liked you. We disagree on many things, but now I've decided I like you.

Yours is good advice, I saw it elsewhere. But I also think the secondary market knows this, and the cars are currently priced accordingly.

 

[MXWing]

I do believe the Short Range car will eventually show up. However I don't believe the $35K car will show up. Or if it does, it will show up the way the $49K Model S showed up.

Tesla basically told everyone they will not make money on a $35K Model 3. Even the most ardent supporter here will tell you they don't want to build it. Some 'base' version of the Model 3 will be available at some point, but before then I strongly suspect Tesla will sneak in some price increase justified by something. That's my prediction, so don't bother to argue with me about it.

By the time the Model 3 is making money, it will already be time for a refresh. It will be the perfect time to raise prices. There's lots of precedence for this.

I also strongly suspect that all Tesla cars are built the same (except of course RWD v. AWD), and that the only difference between P versions or different battery versions or the autopilot actually being enabled is programming. There's evidence to support this. This should probably bother some people more than it does, but the car is so awesome so eh, whatever.

Because of inflation, rising cost of goods, Model 3 should already be more than $35,000. What do I get on the dollar menu at McDonalds? A coffee pretty much.

I do not want Tesla to build a SR Model 3 right now that is correct. Neither does Tesla. Not now does not mean never.

See bold above. Why be bothered. You get what you paid for and what was advertised on your Maroney sticker?

I would love to live in whatever alternate reality you do, wherein it's perfectly fine to advertise a product you have no intention of delivering anytime soon, and not suffering any backlash from it at all.

Let me tell you something, that's not how retail sales work in the real world. I'm guessing that quite a few of those people who gave Tesla $1000 on release date, did so on the premise that there was going to be a car sold somewhere near the $35K price point, since oh, I dunno, THAT'S WHAT TESLA SAID THEY WOULD DO, OVER TWO YEARS AGO.

Not only are you giving Tesla CREDIT for the fact that they won't live up to their promise to these people, you're saying it would be STUPID to? How about the PR gain of "Hey you can actually buy the car we advertise on our website?" Do you think the average person gives a sh*t whether a company makes a profit at a certain price point, or do you think they trust that the company has already figured out what their margin needs to be?

I know it's real hard for folks who have never sold anything or run a business in their entire life, but sometimes you gotta give some margin in order to live up to your commitments.

Dammit man, I just wonder what flavor the Kool-Aid is sometimes.

People put $1,000 on a credit card they got points for. With the interest rate at the time, they made more on points than interest. They can leave the rat race then, and they can leave it now.

No one is "waiting" in line for a Model 3. Unless they are still camped out at the store????

I sell things and have run several business units so I can speak your language. First thing I want to express is anything you sell or anything I sell is demand elastic compared to a Tesla. What Tesla gets away with, no one else does. This is what happens in a monopoly.

I don't actually believe its a promise broken, but promise deferred or promise adjusted. We don't have to see things in absolute black and white terms. The world is not that simple, I know you know this.

It's TRUE the average person gives zero fraks about Tesla's financials. I see it here every day. They SHOULD however. They have to understand that for their warranty to be worth anything, the company has to stay solvent. That's the big picture. Successful people can get out of the micro and into the macro.

The thing is, Tesla has NO MARGIN to give. None, nada, zip. When your EPS is -$4.00 and you burn $9,000 per minute you can't hang yourself with sub optimal financial decisions. It's not like Tesla is greedy and returning too much to their shareholders.. they are returning nothing at all. In fact, everyone things they will continue to dilute their shareholders even more with capital raises.

Some people drink the Tesla Kool-aid I admit. Not me though. It's very stressful to make payments on two of their vehicles and own the stock. I drink Tesla Tequila..

Dude. Whether it would result in Tesla going out of business is not the consumers' problem. SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU GIVE TESLA A PASS ON THIS?

IT IS THE CONSUMERS PROBLEM when their warranty is worthless, supercharging network is dead and they HAVE TO DRIVE UGLY ASS BOLTS, LEAFS and I3s, and SMART EVs - which they would all stop making because the big evil disruptor witch is dead.

See ^^^ for why we need to give Tesla a pass.

if they couldn't price the Model 3 correctly, that's THEIR failure to assess their costs correctly.

Sure, it's their failure. Who cares about what happened in Q1-Q3 in a Football game. You make adjustments as needed in Q4 to win.

I don't really care whether Tesla fails and disappears, or builds every car sold on earth in 30 years. Their inability to price a product (that THEY offered) profitably, is THEIR problem. Telling folks they have to wait because "What, do you want us to go BROKE?" implies it's their problem. That's not how this works, and I know enough about business to say so.

Can you please stop saying it's not the consumers problem? I've mentioned it 10 times and I could say it 100 times in 100 different ways on why it is a consumers problem.

If McDonalds fails, I can go to Wendys. Doesn't translate that well from Tesla to Lucid.

I've went through the purchase process twice for Teslas and have helped a dozen people with theirs.

I've been inside a Tesla sales center approximately 30 times a delivery center 20 times, and a service center about 10 times. And no - service was not to just fix issues, but car upgrades, badge swapping, etc.
Tesla has been more than satisfactory across 90% of those visits.

I think you are hurting your broader learning potential by making huge assumptions that the world of Tesla works exactly like the world you live in. It doesn't.

Your viewpoint is only validated if Tesla is bankrupt by end of 2019. If it doesn't, you are wrong - and I hope you can come back to admit that.

 

[bhzmark]

Just answer a simple question:

What provision in their $1,000 reservation agreement or even any advertising stated that Tesla would make available a $35k car by a date that has passed? Quote it and give a cite. Use the waybackmachine if you like.

Do not rage further in your incoherent fashion. Just answer that simple question.

I don't have a Model 3 on order, so I don't really give a sh*t. The people that put $1000 down a year ago to reserve one, just might however. I'm super glad you got yours because you're happy, right?

When a person goes into McDonald's for a burger, they expect to get a burger, quick, because that's what McDonald's advertises they do. I'm sure you've done this before in your life.

The customer does not care what McDonald's P/E ratio is.

They don't care whether that McDonald's is currently losing money.

They don't care whether four people at that location called in sick, and it's severely understaffed that day.

They don't care what any of the issues are behind the scenes, they only care about the burger they ordered just now.

This makes you mad maybe, but this is how the buying public operates. It's how you operate. Would knowledge of all the above crises make you more sympathetic to the plight that particular McDonald's is currently in? Maybe. But you still want your burger.

This is what I'm trying to tell you. For all the ways people try to make business seem complicated, it's not. Forget EBDITA and all that crap. Keep it simple. Ultimately what matters most is satisfying your customers. You can solve a LOT of problems on a balance sheet by improving the TOP line. How do you do that? By having happy customers, who will buy again, and tell others to do the same.

Crappy service is a good way to piss off customers. Saying something is for sale, that isn't, is a good way to piss off customers. Even one pissed off customer is one too many. I've swallowed my pride a LOT over the years to keep a customer happy, even when I knew I was right.

These service snafus are going to cost Tesla. It might not be noticeable right away, but they matter. Tesla is hot enough right now that they have gotten arrogant, arrogant to the point that they are jumping folks in the queue to deliver who they think they can get to EASIEST, rather than who was there first. You ever been skipped in line? Did that piss you off a little?

Arrogant is telling folks who put hard-earned money down years ago, for a product you announced with TONS of fanfare, "Hey calm down, THESE people are more important right now because they are spending more". This is going to piss off exactly MORE THAN ZERO people. This is something that will come back to bite Tesla in the ass. Maybe not right away, but bite them it will.

I'm pissed off FOR these people, and I don't even have a car on order. Sorry you're incapable of understanding all this.

 

[MXWing]

You know, at one point I didn't think I liked you. We disagree on many things, but now I've decided I like you.

Yours is good advice, I saw it elsewhere. But I also think the secondary market knows this, and the cars are currently priced accordingly.

Thanks. I think its possible to like and be friends with someone even if you disagree on things. As long as people can intelligently defend their positions, not make things overly personal and understand why the person thinks the way they do (even if you believe they are wrong) its the foundation for compromises.

 

[mattjs33]

Because of inflation, rising cost of goods, Model 3 should already be more than $35,000.

This is what I keep saying, the $35,000 Model 3 is not likely to ever materialize. And every time I do, I get a couple "Dislikes", despite the fact it's very probable. It sounds better when you say it, I guess.

It's TRUE the average person gives zero fraks about Tesla's financials. I see it here every day. They SHOULD however. They have to understand that for their warranty to be worth anything, the company has to stay solvent. That's the big picture. Successful people can get out of the micro and into the macro.

The thing is, Tesla has NO MARGIN to give. None, nada, zip. When your EPS is -$4.00 and you burn $9,000 per minute you can't hang yourself with sub optimal financial decisions. It's not like Tesla is greedy and returning too much to their shareholders.. they are returning nothing at all. In fact, everyone things they will continue to dilute their shareholders even more with capital raises.

Some people drink the Tesla Kool-aid I admit. Not me though. It's very stressful to make payments on two of their vehicles and own the stock. I drink Tesla Tequila..

I understand what you're saying as someone who is literally invested in the company. What you and some others don't get is that I'm making these points from the perspective of someone who has not yet done so. And whether their actions might cause problems for Tesla is irrelevant to these people.

IT IS THE CONSUMERS PROBLEM when their warranty is worthless, supercharging network is dead and they HAVE TO DRIVE UGLY ASS BOLTS, LEAFS and I3s, and SMART EVs - which they would all stop making because the big evil disruptor witch is dead. See ^^^ for why we need to give Tesla a pass.

See above. Someone who has not yet purchased, does not care about a warranty he does not own. And if they're aware at all of Tesla's issues, whatever they make of them, that will weigh on their purchase decision.

Your viewpoint is only validated if Tesla is bankrupt by end of 2019. If it doesn't, you are wrong - and I hope you can come back to admit that.

For the record, I don't think Tesla will disappear. They may go bankrupt, but I don't think they will disappear.

Back in 2011, I also thought there was no way Tesla could bring the Model S to market without outside help. I've admitted to being wrong about that, so you know, I'll be around.

 

[mattjs33]

Just answer a simple question:

What provision in their $1,000 reservation agreement or even any advertising stated that Tesla would make available a $35k car by a date that has passed? Quote it and give a cite. Use the waybackmachine if you like.

I can't show you a set on-sale date, and you know that. So you win, I guess?

It's perfectly fine to "sell" people something you have no idea when it will ever be available, as long as you take their money first. This is what I'm understanding now.

Do not rage further in your incoherent fashion. Just answer that simple question.

Hmm. I thought my "rage" (read: opinions you don't like) was relatively coherent. I'm typing string-of-consciousness though so maybe it's a bit rockier than usual.

 

[MXWing]

This is what I keep saying, the $35,000 Model 3 is not likely to ever materialize. And every time I do, I get a couple "Dislikes", despite the fact it's very probable. It sounds better when you say it, I guess.

Oh, I get shredded by the Tesla acolytes here if I don't tow the line stringently and spin everything positive. Let's see some of the examples I can remember.

- I said in 2016, Tesla loses their ass on a $35,000 Model 3. They lose money on COGS, not even counting SG&A. but but but ELON SAID they will make a profit. Some forums mute you if you get too many downvotes in a row. That would be one of the days.
- I dare make the suggestion that Elon's EQ is nowhere near his IQ. High EQ people dont smoke a blunt on TV, especially after being warned it could piss off shareholders. And yep. Elon's phone blows up right after from family and friends.
- I said I don't think its smart for Tesla to piss off Trump (or anyone in charge) for that matter. You play the Game of Thrones and survive.
- New Model 3 annihilates a new Model S in value big time. Agrees: Model 3 owner. Disagrees: Butt hurt Model S owners.

I really wish Elon said $40,000. Just $5,000 more but so much more room to operate with. $35,000 in 2016 money just doesn't roll well in marketing materials.

I understand what you're saying as someone who is literally invested in the company. What you and some others don't get is that I'm making these points from the perspective of someone who has not yet done so. And whether their actions might cause problems for Tesla is irrelevant to these people.

I can also sell stock faster than I can sell a car.. I can divest my TSLA position really anytime. I do believe in its long term thesis. The macro view is it shouldn't matter whether I have shares or not. Tesla needs to make smart decisions for themselves. It's easier to actually not own their shares because I don't care about anyone else customer service issues as long as I "get mine". I'm a caring person so I don't think that way but you know what I mean..

Back in 2011, I also thought there was no way Tesla could bring the Model S to market without outside help. I've admitted to being wrong about that, so you know, I'll be around.

Actually, I think I will have to revisit my cost calculation on the best deal Tesla. I usually like the used RWD Model 3 but with recent AP announcements, I suspect Model S AP1 cars will continue to drop.

You are in a nice Model S and its massive seating and cargo capacity for sub 40,000. 50,000 buys you a Model S 85 with AP1 and 4.2 0-60. Not bad at all. A $35,000 Model 3 owner isn't buying EAP or FSD so no EAP or FSD on a Model S P85 is a non issue to them..

 

[RTF5.8]

Full disclosure, I am NOT an owner yet, I'm here because of my interest in Tesla in the future and a car enthusiast. I know this will not be popular here one bit, but I'll ask it anyway, does anyone feel Tesla is mismanaged from the top down? I think Musk is an outstanding visionary, and Tesla is where they are because of him, but it's time to hand the reigns to someone with a steady hand. Looking from the outside, these issues plaguing Tesla scream desperation, incompetence, and really a lack of ethics all around.

 

[bhzmark]

It's perfectly fine to "sell" people something you have no idea when it will ever be available, as long as you take their money first. This is what I'm understanding now.

It wasn't a sale of a car.

It was a fully refundable reservation to be in a line to later be offered the ability to order a car in various configurations as those configurations become available.

That's it. If people thought it was something else then they weren't paying attention.

Your implausible outrage, to the extent it is authentic which I suspect it may not be (troll), is based solely on imagining that the $1000 reservation is something that it is not.

 

[MXWing]

Full disclosure, I am NOT an owner yet, I'm here because of my interest in Tesla in the future and a car enthusiast. I know this will not be popular here one bit, but I'll ask it anyway, does anyone feel Tesla is mismanaged from the top down? I think Musk is an outstanding visionary, and Tesla is where they are because of him, but it's time to hand the reigns to someone with a steady hand. Looking from the outside, these issues plaguing Tesla scream desperation, incompetence, and really a lack of ethics all around.

No one with a brain or heart would excuse poor treatment of anyone.

Those who are vested in both company and vehicles however, might have explanations why things are the way they are. Explanations are not excuses even though some may think the two are the same...

Elon and Tesla are underwater, no one can dispute that. While some of that is from Tesla's own hubris - oh hey look.. I got this robot that simulates 4 fingers and an opposable thumb that can high five a worker every time a car rolls through the line. It only cost 50 million and two quarters to deploy after booking a private plane from Germany to deliver it. Or Tesla could have paid someone 10 bucks an hour to stand there and do the same thing better.

Most of Tesla's issues I believe are actually consumer demand. People want their car, now and they want it perfect. I really supported Tesla private.

What Tesla could have done is just build 25,000 maximum margin Model 3s.. and take their time to perfect the process and scale up.

But then you are going to have 75,000+ pissed off people who want their car NOW.

Damned if you do.. damned you don't.

Tesla can use quality help for sure, but so can anyone. Tesla is just under a huge microscope because Musk and Tesla is larger than life so the level of scrutiny they face is unreal.

I expect things to improve next year.

 

[rdunniii]

Elon has recognized the issue and is starting to work on it, just takes time and money.
4th quarter should be similar to 3rd, but a lot more optimization and increasing delivery.

So there's still over 300,000 to be delivered? 1\4 of the way there.

And THAT is THE problem. What does Tesla do if Elon gets hit by a bus or has a heart attack. Apple didn't become the company it is until Steve was fired and he realized it was not all about him. If Elon doesn't start finding the right people to take care of these things, and let them take care of it, then Tesla is in trouble because it is not sustainable. What Elon really needs to be doing is finding his Tim Cook.

 

[MXWing]

And THAT is THE problem. What does Tesla do if Elon gets hit by a bus or has a heart attack. Apple didn't become the company it is until Steve was fired and he realized it was not all about him. If Elon doesn't start finding the right people to take care of these things, and let them take care of it, then Tesla is in trouble because it is not sustainable. What Elon really needs to be doing is finding his Tim Cook.

Elon figuratively just got hit by a bus that he built himself. Ugh

 

[rdunniii]

Elon figuratively just got hit by a bus that he built himself. Ugh

I did not know about the SEC action until after I posted the above. Mark Zuckerburg is next.

 

[Jedi2155]

And THAT is THE problem. What does Tesla do if Elon gets hit by a bus or has a heart attack. Apple didn't become the company it is until Steve was fired and he realized it was not all about him. If Elon doesn't start finding the right people to take care of these things, and let them take care of it, then Tesla is in trouble because it is not sustainable. What Elon really needs to be doing is finding his Tim Cook.

He's French and his name is Jerome Guillen.