Improving my P3D+ range

[SCW-Greg]

Careful! I read somewhere else on these forums that the rotors and calipers that come with the performance model may not work with smaller wheels... at least not without some modifications. Check with your service center to confirm.

 

[rocktheboat]

I purchased my P3D+ 4 days ago ...

I'm thinking of buying the TST 18" wheels with Conti DWS 06 all seasons for winter. Has anyone with this combo seen how their efficiency changed? Any reason to believe this is a bad choice?

Unfortunately, on P3D+ 18” aren’t an option because they won’t fit, the calipers are larger on p3d so your only options are 19” and 20”.

 

[FranceUSA]

The 18 Sportline will work if you select brake performance option on their page. But the clearance will be very small and for winter tire the snow will build up behind caliper and will not be good. But if used for summer that will fit great.
Their 19 from Sportline will work since they are very light weight too.

 

[Oyster Bait]

@Jedi2155 I'm genuinely impressed with your wh/mile statistics so far. I'm assuming you're on your OEM 20" Michelin Sport tires. Are you doing any hypermiling actions? I've got a P3D+ with the 20" Michelin Sports and don't have many miles on them but am getting dog *sugar* mileage. I have a set of 18" Primacy MXM4 new car takeoffs I bought off the classifieds here and am waiting for the FC04s that the Mad Hungarian used on his Fastest 0-60 P3D+ video to be available for mail order to get them mounted and will report on the results ASAP.

It's my opinion that wheel weight isn't as important as tire section width and tread width when it comes to wh/mile numbers. I looked up the specs on TireRack and the 20" OEM Michelins on the PUO Performance M3s have a one inch wider tread width than the 18" Primacys on the rest of the M3s. That's 11% more rubber on the road, and they also have a much worse tire wear rating number. My thousand-year old engineering degree wants me to think the tire treads are like little glue stamps sucking up electrons as the wheels roll merrily along the roads generously purchased by we happy smiling taxpayers.

Sometimes my imagination gets away from me.

 

[CarCrazed4Life]

Came upon this thread.
1) 18" wheels do fit. Saw the mention about T Sportlines 18" wheels with the 3mm spacer.
2) Vredestein Quatrac5 are efficient and recommended over OEM Michelins 235/45/18s. See TR's page on them.
3) I'm trying to confirm if spacers were used, would the OEM 18" Aeros clear the brake calipers?

 

[Tjhappel]

I’d love to see the answer to this... I have oem 19’s w snow tires on my p3+ from the factory and no issues.

 

[DVS484]

18" TST do in fact fit without spacers have them with some nokian wr4 and it preforms very well in the snow

 

[L-P-G]

AND to those who say "drive slower"... No, I'm not going to drive slower just because I bought an electric vehicle. I drove my ice cars this way and plan to keep driving the same.

The laws of thermodynamics don't care how stubborn you are, ICE and EVs are very different and you should know that. Either slow down or draft another vehicle, preferably one bigger than you so they take the brunt of the wind resistance which lowers your drag which in turn increases your range by lowering your wh/mi.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

The 18 Sportline will work if you select brake performance option on their page. But the clearance will be very small and for winter tire the snow will build up behind caliper and will not be good. But if used for summer that will fit great.
Their 19 from Sportline will work since they are very light weight too.

Titan 7's 18 inch wheel fits too..

 

[Orwell]

Does anyone know if 17" wheels fit over the non-PUP brakes? That would be the ultimate in low weight and low rotational inertia.

 

[Daniel in SD]

They make Ecopias in the 18" size: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...ewall=Blackwall&partnum=345VR8EP422&tab=Specs
Four wheel burnouts may be possible!

 

[ppower]

I have 20mm rear spacers and am trying to find a local person willing to let me test fit to see if the 18's then have enough room to clear the rear calipers of the P+. So far, nobody is willing to meet up. I guess I need to be in California.

As far as what is affecting range, I would like to see what efficiency the RWD gets with the 20" wheels. Currently, we're seeing anecdotal evidence that the P+ is taking at least a 25% range hit when driven similarly to a RWD. The EPA testing shows there to be a 7% difference between them. The Michelin PS tires are a special compound that is low resistance for its grip, so it isn't a regular Michelin PS tire like the MXM4 is. Tire width is the same, so it isn't that.

In city driving, rotational weight of the 20" 31lbs wheel should definitely be an impact compared to the 20lbs 18" wheel. That plus difficulty to gauge gentle acceleration from a 450hp car and 270hp car are difficult to determine. I'll just assume that it is a big impact for city driving where I'm in town and charging at home every night. My range doesn't matter there.

At highway speed, aerodynamics should affect it more than the weight because it is at constant speed. However, constant speed on highway is really where we see the range difference. The 20" and 19" should have near identical aerodynamics and definitely better than the 18" w/o aero cover.

Then, some will argue that it doesn't matter how lightweight the wheel is because a 20" will always be worse than an 18" because the barrel carries more weight and is 1" further away from the center. While there is some logic to that, the tire is still there and in some cases, the narrow sidewall tire makes up for the weight difference of the wheel. It's hard to believe that the wheel barrel being 10" from center vs 9" is going to decrease efficiency by 15-25%. No logical sense.

Some say that if you have a wheel with lower offset to be closer to flush, it is going to completely destroy the aerodynamics. They say that there is more surface area of the tire that air is hitting along the curve of the front bumper. I have 15mm spacers on my P, and the efficiency is no worse now than before I put them on. If the tire extended past the wheel well (poke) and disturbed airflow, there could be a difference.

So what is best? Get lightweight 18x8.5 wheels, low resistance 235 wide tires, and create an aero cap.

Another aid: Lower the car. You will improve aerodynamics by lowering the car a bit. How much will it help? IDK, but it helps not hurts aero efficiency.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Michelin PS tires are a special compound that is low resistance for its grip, so it isn't a regular Michelin PS tire like the MXM4 is.

I'm almost positive that it is the same tire except for the acoustic foam. If they had some miracle compound they'd use it in all the PS4S tires. I have non-Tesla PS4S and they claim to be "eco focused" or some nonsense but they're way less efficient than the MXM4s. You've got to pay to play!
Someone just has to find an 18" wheel with a large diameter barrel that fits the aero covers. The Enkei PF01 seem like a possibility...
I went from 290Wh/mi with aeros/MXM4 to 350Wh/mi with 18x9.5 265/40R18 PS4S.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The EPA testing shows there to be a 7% difference between them.

I didn't think there was any EPA test of the P3D+? This table just extrapolates to what it should be, based on whatever his methodology is (I actually wasn't able to discern at a glance how he got the P3D+ numbers - which are 9.2% worse than the AWD with 18" w/o aero). Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com

However, constant speed on highway is really where we see the range difference.

The tires are a huge contributor! I would conclude that their rolling resistance is large and even at highway speeds, on the same order as aero losses (enough that it has a substantial impact on highway range). So there's not really a contradiction here. The energy that is required to roll the tires 200+ miles just has to be subtracted from the pack. And that energy is a lot larger than it is with MXM4s (apparently about 6kWh more for the PS4S than the MXM4).

Get lightweight 18x8.5 wheels, low resistance 235 wide tires, and create an aero cap.

I agree! I'm looking for this solution. Let me know if you know of anyone with an aftermarket aero cap solution. I'm probably going to go with MXM4s for a tire for range, since they seem to be a good overall solution and would be serviceable in the snow (though highly inferior, they might not result in an instant accident).

 

[MacGreiner]

The laws of thermodynamics don't care how stubborn you are, ICE and EVs are very different and you should know that. Either slow down or draft another vehicle, preferably one bigger than you so they take the brunt of the wind resistance which lowers your drag which in turn increases your range by lowering your wh/mi.

Careful what you draft though:

 

[ppower]

I didn't think there was any EPA test of the P3D+? This table just extrapolates to what it should be, based on whatever his methodology is (I actually wasn't able to discern at a glance how he got the P3D+ numbers). Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com

Yes, EPA had to test the P and D. Granted, they didn't test 18 vs. 20". This brings up a very telling thing. Look at the info from the few P- owners. They have better range but still much worse than the RWD LR. I believe that the front motor is never torque resting as it should be able to being a Permanent Magnet motor, and that is causing an unnecessary drain on the drivetrain. Then again, AWD in an ICE causes maybe 10% worse fuel economy. This goes back to the S & X getting ~10% greater range with the D over RWD models, and we're seeing easily 20% less. Range mode on the S & X seem to improve range by about 4%. It all just doesn't equate, and I can only hope that an OTA will improve things.

The tires are a huge contributor! I would conclude that their rolling resistance is large and even at highway speeds, on the same order as aero losses (enough that it has a substantial impact on highway range). So there's not really a contradiction here. The energy that is required to roll the tires 200+ miles just has to be subtracted from the pack. And that energy is a lot larger than it is with MXM4s (apparently about 6kWh more for the PS4S than the MXM4).

Again, they aren't so gummy as to justify just how much losses we're seeing. Maybe when I wear these out, I'll look at cheap 500A Nankang tires. Only all seasons I see. That should be better. https://www.discounttire.com/buy-tires/nankang-tire-ns-25-a-s-uhp/p/41138

I agree! I'm looking for this solution. Let me know if you know of anyone with an aftermarket aero cap solution. I'm probably going to go with MXM4s for a tire for range, since they seem to be a good overall solution and would be serviceable in the snow (though highly inferior, they might not result in an instant accident).

IMO the way to do this is a company to take a style of wheel and a manufacturer that does a Face I, II, and III for amount of concavity. Then you can vary width & offset knowing that you have 3 faces. Build plastic aero covers to fit Face I, II, and III. As more electrics come to market, there will be greater room in the market for something like this. I only want covers for road trips. I'm OK with shorter range in town, but until range can be improved, this is unfortunately not a great road trip car for me.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Again, they aren't so gummy as to justify just how much losses we're seeing

Data? To me the loss numbers seem well within reason, but I don't have specific numbers calculated for what the aero losses are per mile. But given that the PS4S improve stopping distance from 125 to 105 feet, they may well be quite sticky. You can also tell from the amount of rocks they throw up and track into your garage, stuck to the treads. My garage is covered in small pebbles. Not so for my vehicle that has Ecopias! Those things seem to be Teflon coated.

Look at the info from the few P- owners. They have better range but still much worse than the RWD LR. I believe that the front motor is never torque resting as it should be able to being a Permanent Magnet motor, and that is causing an unnecessary drain on the drivetrain.

The front motor is an induction motor. These losses are pretty well understood at this point. You can't get better efficiency by adding another motor & transmission & drive axles, if your rear motor is already very very efficient. It only improved things for Model S because it allows the motors to operate in more optimal zones at different times (because the induction motors weren't that efficient to start with).

So as a result the AWD (and the P) are a lot worse than the LR RWD, even with identical tires.

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[Jason_G]

I purchased my P3D+ 4 days ago and so far I love the car. It's great.

My only problem is the range: I knew the wheels hurt things but it's even lower than I expected. The absolute best I've seen so far on my 50 mile round trip commute is 305 w/mile The worst was 369w/mile. That was driving fast but not out of line with other cars in the fast lane.

From what I've read, downgrading to the OEM 19" wheels w/ all-season tires isn't going to help me much. Going to 18's makes the biggest jump, even without the aero caps.

I'm thinking of buying the TST 18" wheels with Conti DWS 06 all seasons for winter. Has anyone with this combo seen how their efficiency changed? Any reason to believe this is a bad choice?

I'm also wondering whether it's really about the wheel diameter? Or do Tesla OEM wheels just have particularly bad aerodynamics?
Are there more and less efficient 18" wheels?

Kinda wishing I had skipped the PUP so I could run aeros. Ah well, hindsight is 20-20.

AND to those who say "drive slower"... No, I'm not going to drive slower just because I bought an electric vehicle. I drove my ice cars this way and plan to keep driving the same.

Here I am wishing I had purchased pup. I’ve had at least two Tesla owners try hard to convince me I was mistaken and my model was not a Performance model.

 

[L-P-G]

Careful what you draft though:

Well that's just bad driving, the person didn't wait for the tanker to finish their pass before getting next to the other semi. He essentially blocked his only way to avoid a road hazard. Always have a plan B, people drive like ass everywhere

 

[jvonbokel]

I'm thinking of buying the TST 18" wheels with Conti DWS 06 all seasons for winter. Has anyone with this combo seen how their efficiency changed?

I went with exactly this combo. Unfortunately the temperature in my neck of the woods has dropped significantly, so it's hard to judge the efficiency gain, but I'm optimistic. I'm hoping to get somewhere close to what I had been experiencing in my LR RWD w/19" stock wheels/tires, which was spot on with rated range.

What I did was look at the chart at teslike.com, and figured the P3D should be really close to the LRD, and the 18" -Aero should hopefully be similar to the TST 18". If those assumptions are correct, then it would make the P3D w/TST 18" wheels almost identical to an LR 19" (literally one mile range difference). After writing that though, I just now checked and the chart has been updated with entries for P3D. Looks like my first assumption was good (with same wheel config, P3D = LRD). Looks like somehow the P3D 18" -Aero is 3-5mi below the LR 19", but I can live with that. Now I just have to hope that the TST's are not somehow drastically less efficient than the stock 18" wheels, but that seems like a safe bet IMO.