Is it possible to add a charger outlet to my condo?

[eprosenx]

Also I wonder: There is a rule that says if you have a service entrance that feeds an entire residence, you can under-size that by only calculating it as if it was 83% of what it would otherwise be. I wonder if it would be allowed to classify your unit in that way and then be able to push a little more than 60a on your main service feed?

Oh also, I did some more reading on this last night and the 83% rule does NOT apply since it only applies to services in the 100-400a range. I was thinking that might have been how folks were allowed to do a 90a breaker, but it is not a factor.

 

[Rodo]

Well ... I just talked to the electrician. He didn't have an explanation for the 90A breaker either. He said I can add a 40A breaker for the charging outlet but he wasn't sure if the city would approve it. He said some cities are strict, some are not. This got me thinking back to when I added all the breakers values and they are more than the 60A main breaker. I'm no expert at this but the EE in me tells me that the rules and regulations are meant to protect us from harm and prevent property damage. So what's the rule/logic of allowing those many breakers in the panel and preventing me from just adding another 40A (or 50A) breaker **if** I'm only going to use it at night when all devices are off, when there is plenty of power available without tripping the main 60A breaker? BTW it should be obvious that EE me does not work in power stuff. I do embedded systems where voltages now are 3vdc and below.

I did download a sheet for electric load calculation for single dwelling. I see a big problem getting the info from the A/C plate because it is in the roof and I have to get the HOA ladder to get up there and the A/C is 32 years old. I was told the condos where built in 1986. I'm not sure if the plate/sticker is still visible. I'm gathering the other info from the stickers on the devices or the user manual when I can't find the sticker or can't access it (like the TVs that are on the wall and can't get to the sticker). But again, I find it rather pointless since I can use more appliances at the same time without tripping the internal breakers but trip the 60A. This is probably why I don't work in the power field .

I have to call the city next week and see what they say. Unfortunately I may have to tell on my neighbor's 90A breaker to make a point. I'm not friend with that neighbor even though we share the walls. They rent the unit and they've had some pretty crappy tenants lately. Oh BTW I own my unit. I'm afraid that if that 90A breaker overheats the wires and something happens the HOA is going to point the finger at the guy with the EV. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[rdlink]

So I *love* my Sense. But I think that is only possible if you just totally don't care about the machine learning based device identification. Basically I am really not sure that it is possible to accurately identify devices based solely on a single set of current CT's on the mains. Too many devices would look similar, and many things these days (especially EV's) ramp up relatively slowly and without any obvious spikes at startup and so they are difficult to match a signature for.

With that being said: No, it does not detect my Tesla Model 3 as a device, but that is not what I use it for. My use case is graphing the power draw, and my solar generation, and looking at the mains voltage. I guess $300 for that is quite expensive, but there is nothing else really that does this and the app is very good about providing that data in real time. I keep encouraging them to add more non machine learning features - like I want a graph of voltage over time (in addition to the year long graph of current), and I want alerts when the power company has issues with voltage or frequency, etc...

I will say the machine learning stuff has gotten better, it detects certain devices flawlessly (basically like all the parts of my refrigerator it does a great job on - I can monitor the compressor and the water dispenser and the ice dispenser and the ice maker and the defrost heater, etc....

The installation instructions of the Sense do say it can go on another 240v circuit with something else. I prefer to have it on its own circuit so I could power cycle it independently if ever needed (others have reported issues of the Sense going offline if there is a slight power bump, but I have had zero stability issues - though my power is really solid). I think the rules are weird since the Sense is inside of your electrical panel and so it may be allowed to have the Sense on some much larger than necessary circuit. The smallest breakers I was able to find for it were 15a ones. The Sense needs as close to zero power as you could imagine. Like a handful of watts, so capacity wise sharing is not an issue at all.

When I installed my Tesla charger I got some quad tandem breakers that helped me save panel space. Depending on your situation, perhaps you could do the same.

P.S. I did use my Sense to discover my M3 was doing something weird with the charger. It was cycling on and off every four minutes or so after completing its charge. My M3 is in for service right now due to this issue.

Thanks. Yeah, without the machine learning part of it I wouldn't even have bought it. The "commercial" made it look a lot more advanced and intelligent than it really is right now.

I may go ahead and hook it up to the 60 amp breaker that the HPWC is on, since it only draws 0.1 amps. That way if I have to cycle the power I'll only affect the charger, which will generally only be working when I'm asleep, anyway.

 

[eprosenx]

Thanks. Yeah, without the machine learning part of it I wouldn't even have bought it. The "commercial" made it look a lot more advanced and intelligent than it really is right now.

I may go ahead and hook it up to the 60 amp breaker that the HPWC is on, since it only draws 0.1 amps. That way if I have to cycle the power I'll only affect the charger, which will generally only be working when I'm asleep, anyway.

So FWIW I think they suggest putting it on the minimum ampacity breaker you have available. I think this makes sense as if something inside the sense went wrong, I don’t think it could draw enough current to blow a 60a breaker.

Could you team it with something else that was not a big deal to reboot if you ever had to? Water heater, wall heater, oven, etc...

 

[rdlink]

So FWIW I think they suggest putting it on the minimum ampacity breaker you have available. I think this makes sense as if something inside the sense went wrong, I don’t think it could draw enough current to blow a 60a breaker.

Could you team it with something else that was not a big deal to reboot if you ever had to? Water heater, wall heater, oven, etc...

Good point. Thanks. I have gas water heater. I can put it with either the range or the dryer, and just make sure I'm not using either one if I ever have to toggle. The dryer would be my preference, because it doesn't have a clock...

 

[DanL3]

I would add a 30a breaker and get a Tesla adaptor to go from the 30a plug to the UMC. That will limit you to 24a charging, but that is plenty for your needs. Have the electrician put in a plug to match the adaptor.

 

[tga]

I would add a 30a breaker and get a Tesla adaptor to go from the 30a plug to the UMC. That will limit you to 24a charging, but that is plenty for your needs. Have the electrician put in a plug to match the adaptor.

Specifically a 14-30. You can't legally install new 10- series outlets; NEC forbids them since they are not grounded.

 

[Rodo]

Latest update:

I called the city and talked to an inspector. I told him about my two options:

1. A 40A breaker with 14-50 receptacle
2. A 40A breaker with the three way safety switch (to disconnect the A/C) and 14-50 receptacle.

He said that as long as I have space for a 40A breaker in the existing panel, that would pass inspection. He said I didn't need the safety switch to disconnect the A/C. So I'm going with option one. I'm still looking into replacing the panel (same amps just new panel and breakers). I'm looking at the Square D Homeline panels, but they're wider that my old panel. It is a very small wall where the panel is. Still investigating but if all fails to replace the panel, I'll just add the 40A breaker and use 32A to charge the car at night when all other electrical stuff is off.

BTW someone earlier told me about the retrofit kits for my panel. I guess that would make it a hybrid of old/new. I don't really like that. I prefer all new or keep the old stuff.

Thanks every one for the help.

 

[tga]

Every panel I've seen recently is less than 14.5" wide and will fit between studs 16" on center. Unless your wall is odd, there's probably plenty of width behind the wallboard - do you have a studfinder to see what's back there?

 

[eprosenx]

Latest update:

I called the city and talked to an inspector. I told him about my two options:

1. A 40A breaker with 14-50 receptacle
2. A 40A breaker with the three way safety switch (to disconnect the A/C) and 14-50 receptacle.

He said that as long as I have space for a 40A breaker in the existing panel, that would pass inspection. He said I didn't need the safety switch to disconnect the A/C. So I'm going with option one. I'm still looking into replacing the panel (same amps just new panel and breakers). I'm looking at the Square D Homeline panels, but they're wider that my old panel. It is a very small wall where the panel is. Still investigating but if all fails to replace the panel, I'll just add the 40A breaker and use 32A to charge the car at night when all other electrical stuff is off.

BTW someone earlier told me about the retrofit kits for my panel. I guess that would make it a hybrid of old/new. I don't really like that. I prefer all new or keep the old stuff.

Thanks every one for the help.

Nice! I think the inspectors really appreciate it when you ask them first. ;-) Sometimes they will "pre approve" you to get away with some minor stuff.

I probably would still wire it with 6awg wire just in case for future. I don't really love 14-50's on 40a circuits, but I get it in this case due to your limited 60a service (though from a practical standpoint with a UMC Gen 2 it makes zero difference).

I am curious if you do a panel replacement if they will want you to install AFCI breakers and such? Did you by chance ask them that?

I look forward to seeing pictures of your final result! What kind of wire are you planning on? Romex? Or something in conduit? (or I guess Romex is conduit is allowed in some cases)