Is it worth $3k for FSD for EAP owners

[daniel]

What's ODD?

Level 3 means the driver does not need to remain alert. S/he can read a book or talk on the phone. The car will alert him/her with enough advance warning to safely take over when necessary. L3 might apply to limited features/conditions. I.e., L3 might apply only to highway driving, or might apply to NoA/city, etc.

If everywhere I currently drive on EAP L2 were to become L3, I'd happily pay $10K for the upgrade of my car, or I'd trade up my car for one that was capable. I personally feel that for NoA/city to be truly useful it would need to be Level 3 or higher, because that kind of driving would be too stressful at L2.

Level 4 means the driver can go to sleep in the back seat. The car will stop safely and wake the driver to take over if needed. This could apply to limited conditions, such as daylight highway, though that would be of minimal utility since highways generally run through cities from time to time.

Level 5 means the car does not require that a human be in the car. Presumably it can go anywhere on-road that a person might drive.

 

[mongo]

Purchasing FSD will, as of today, give you absolutely nothing extra. No new computer. No early access program.

FSD gets you early access.
Twitter

I think the cameras need redundancy, not just full coverage. What happens to your no-driver car when a splot of mud hits the camera lens?

There are 3 forward cameras (plus radar) and the NN controls the wipers so it can clear obstructions.

 

[pscarroll]

FSD gets you early access.
Twitter

Well sure Elon said that, he's said it before, doesn't make it true. Many people who purchased FSD have NEVER gotten an invitation to the Early Access Program, myself included. So this is false, a LIE, an untruth.

Even if you interpret what he said as FSD purchasers would get earlier access compared to other users, well if you look at the current version I'm at 2019.24.4, if you look at TeslaFi most users are currently upgraded to a higher version. i doubt the majority of Model 3 owners have purchased FSD, therefore I should have gotten the new updates currently rolling out. And for clarity, I've been on a good WiFi signal for the past several days so that is not the case (and when I'm traveling I'm on a WiFi hotspot in my car, but right now I'm on a solid WiFi connection in my garage at home). Having purchased FSD in NO WAY increases your priority in the queue in updates. None whatsoever. No matter what Elon says, it's simply not true.

 

[japhule]

I think Elon means earlier access to software updates, I don't recall him ever saying that people with FSD would be part of the "Early Access Program".

 

[Trewendy]

Just in case any of you were wondering if the FSD did come with the computer upgrade this is what I got from Tesla after I purchased the FSD. Purchased a 3 in Nov 2018 with EAP.

" After reviewing your account and car I see you recently purchased the Full Self Driving upgrade. I show that you had Enhanced Autopilot before completing the Full Self Driving Upgrade.

At this time, there are no releases that have yet been sent for Full Self Driving that have not also been enabled for Enhanced Autopilot. This is going to change here soon and you will start to receive the benefits of the Full Self Driving as the features are rolled out through firmware. You can find a list of the features here, Autopilot.

This does also qualify you for the upgrade to our new Full Self Driving Computer at no additional cost. We are expecting to install the new computer sometime in Q3/Q4 of this year. Your local service team will be reaching out directly once this is available.

I hope this information helped clarify your questions and concerns for you. You are more than welcome to respond to this email if you have further questions. We appreciate you being part of the Tesla family and for helping to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

Thank you,

Erik C | Tesla Support
12832 Frontrunner Blvd., Draper, UT 84020
www.tesla.com/support"

 

[pscarroll]

I think Elon means earlier access to software updates, I don't recall him ever saying that people with FSD would be part of the "Early Access Program".

Yet that is even not true.

 

[pscarroll]

Just in case any of you were wondering if the FSD did come with the computer upgrade this is what I got from Tesla after I purchased the FSD. Purchased a 3 in Nov 2018 with EAP.

" After reviewing your account and car I see you recently purchased the Full Self Driving upgrade. I show that you had Enhanced Autopilot before completing the Full Self Driving Upgrade.

At this time, there are no releases that have yet been sent for Full Self Driving that have not also been enabled for Enhanced Autopilot. This is going to change here soon and you will start to receive the benefits of the Full Self Driving as the features are rolled out through firmware. You can find a list of the features here, Autopilot.

This does also qualify you for the upgrade to our new Full Self Driving Computer at no additional cost. We are expecting to install the new computer sometime in Q3/Q4 of this year. Your local service team will be reaching out directly once this is available.

I hope this information helped clarify your questions and concerns for you. You are more than welcome to respond to this email if you have further questions. We appreciate you being part of the Tesla family and for helping to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

Thank you,

Erik C | Tesla Support
12832 Frontrunner Blvd., Draper, UT 84020
www.tesla.com/support"

Interesting, Tesla has never communicated that to me after I gave then $3000. You got scammed. LOL

 

[Trewendy]

Did you specifically ask? I did and that was the reply. Not sure why you think that was a scam, when I asked the question on the Tesla web site when logged in and I got a reply from [email protected]. Really don't think they are that bold to flat out lie when there is electronic proof of the reply. Try asking and let us know.

 

[diplomat33]

What's ODD?

Level 3 means the driver does not need to remain alert. S/he can read a book or talk on the phone. The car will alert him/her with enough advance warning to safely take over when necessary. L3 might apply to limited features/conditions. I.e., L3 might apply only to highway driving, or might apply to NoA/city, etc.

If everywhere I currently drive on EAP L2 were to become L3, I'd happily pay $10K for the upgrade of my car, or I'd trade up my car for one that was capable. I personally feel that for NoA/city to be truly useful it would need to be Level 3 or higher, because that kind of driving would be too stressful at L2.

Level 4 means the driver can go to sleep in the back seat. The car will stop safely and wake the driver to take over if needed. This could apply to limited conditions, such as daylight highway, though that would be of minimal utility since highways generally run through cities from time to time.

Level 5 means the car does not require that a human be in the car. Presumably it can go anywhere on-road that a person might drive.

ODD stands for Operational Design Domain. It's the technical term for all the conditions that the self-driving is designed to work in. ODD includes things like types of roads, geofencing, time of day, weather, speed etc... It's factors that might be a restriction on where or how the self-driving can work. For example, any road where Autopilot can be turned on is inside the ODD of Autopilot. Any road that NoA can be turned on is inside the ODD of NoA. When severe weather causes Autopilot to disengage, that's because that weather pattern (severe rain) is outside the ODD of Autopilot.

L4 does not need a human in the car either as long as it is inside it's ODD. Functionally, L4 and L5 are the same except for the ODD. Both L4 and L5 are FSD where the human can sleep in the car or no human is needed in the car at all. The difference is that L4 has a more restrictive ODD. It might be goefenced or limited to certain roads. For example, a geofenced L5 becomes L4. L5 has no restrictions on ODD. It's FSD that works on every road, no geofencing, all weather. etc...

 

[daniel]

It would be nice to see a demonstration of whether any blind-spots exist, but as far as I can see there are none.

FSD gets you early access.
There are 3 forward cameras (plus radar) and the NN controls the wipers so it can clear obstructions.

But only one rear camera and one side camera in each direction. The forward camera is protected by the windshield which can be cleared by the wipers (unless it's something like tar or heavy mud) but the rear and side cameras have no way to clean their lenses. And the rear camera is low to the ground where it can get splattered. Redundancy is standard wherever safety is an issue.

Note also that the forward camera can only see through that one tiny area of windshield. If your windshield gets splattered you can move your head around to see through the one area that's clear. The car needs sensor redundancy.

ODD stands for Operational Design Domain. It's the technical term for all the conditions that the self-driving is designed to work in. ODD includes things like types of roads, geofencing, time of day, weather, speed etc... It's factors that might be a restriction on where or how the self-driving can work. For example, any road where Autopilot can be turned on is inside the ODD of Autopilot. Any road that NoA can be turned on is inside the ODD of NoA. When severe weather causes Autopilot to disengage, that's because that weather pattern (severe rain) is outside the ODD of Autopilot.

L4 does not need a human in the car either as long as it is inside it's ODD. Functionally, L4 and L5 are the same except for the ODD. Both L4 and L5 are FSD where the human can sleep in the car or no human is needed in the car at all. The difference is that L4 has a more restrictive ODD. It might be goefenced or limited to certain roads. For example, a geofenced L5 becomes L4. L5 has no restrictions on ODD. It's FSD that works on every road, no geofencing, all weather. etc...

Thanks for the clarifications.

I had thought that the difference between L4 and L5 was that L5 could handle all eventualities that a human could handle, where L4 might encounter a situation it cannot handle. That is, its ODD might include more requirements than just geographical, so that there would be no way of knowing for certain that any given route complies. Thus a human would be needed in case of such eventualities. You could not use an L4 car to pick up your kids from school, or as a robo-taxi even within a specific geographical area.

However, I won't quibble, because for my purposes, L4 would be as good as L5. I only use my car to transport myself, and if on rare occasions I had to move into the driver's seat, that would not be a problem.

I think L4 is a decade away.

 

[Octo]

Level 3 means the driver does not need to remain alert. S/he can read a book or talk on the phone. The car will alert him/her with enough advance warning to safely take over when necessary. L3 might apply to limited features/conditions. I.e., L3 might apply only to highway driving, or might apply to NoA/city, etc.

L3 seems the strangest to me. What would be an L3 scenario that is beyond L2 and not quite L4?

When I’m reading a book on L3, I’d expect at least a 10 second advanced warning so that I can put away the book, analyze the problem and take action.

So that means L3 must be as good as L4 reacting to unpredictable dangerous situations that can happen very quickly. If it cannot do this, then it would be back at L2 level because it would be unsafe to read a book on L3.

Is L3 basically L4 on well defined routes (eg interstates) and L2 (or even just AP without the E) on other routes (city?).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

L3 seems the strangest to me. What would be an L3 scenario that is beyond L2 and not quite L4?

A lot of people think L3 will be skipped. Hard to envision a system which can handle things for several seconds on its own, yet still requires a human to intervene, rather than just pulling over or having the system handle it.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

A lot of people think L3 will be skipped. Hard to envision a system which can handle things for several seconds on its own, yet still requires a human to intervene, rather than just pulling over or having the system handle it.

L3 is a challenge, because not only is there an issue of human response time, there's the extra time for the human to understand the situation and act appropriately.

I think the key limit would be situations where the car can easily and safely stop, such as in slow-moving restricted-highway traffic or during a parking maneuver. Those are situations where the driver has time to think.

Audi said they would do L3 in slower-moving highway traffic.

 

[diplomat33]

L3 seems the strangest to me. What would be an L3 scenario that is beyond L2 and not quite L4?

When I’m reading a book on L3, I’d expect at least a 10 second advanced warning so that I can put away the book, analyze the problem and take action.

So that means L3 must be as good as L4 reacting to unpredictable dangerous situations that can happen very quickly. If it cannot do this, then it would be back at L2 level because it would be unsafe to read a book on L3.

Is L3 basically L4 on well defined routes (eg interstates) and L2 (or even just AP without the E) on other routes (city?).

An example of L3 is a traffic jam chauffeur like what Audi has, where the car can self-drive without driver supervision when you are in a traffic jam.

But I agree that L3 is not that useful because if you can do self-driving, you might as well skip L3 and go straight to L4.

 

[daniel]

L3 seems the strangest to me. What would be an L3 scenario that is beyond L2 and not quite L4?

When I’m reading a book on L3, I’d expect at least a 10 second advanced warning so that I can put away the book, analyze the problem and take action.

So that means L3 must be as good as L4 reacting to unpredictable dangerous situations that can happen very quickly. If it cannot do this, then it would be back at L2 level because it would be unsafe to read a book on L3.

Is L3 basically L4 on well defined routes (eg interstates) and L2 (or even just AP without the E) on other routes (city?).

You make some very good points. I guess I think of the difference between L3 and L4 as: L3 can get the driver in charge in ten seconds; L4 would have to find a safe place to park, to wake up the driver who's sleeping in the back seat, and might take five minutes to get fully awake and ready to drive. (Which as diplomat33 points out, is almost L5.)

Whether there are conditions where ten seconds vs. five minutes would make a difference, I don't know. Another way I think of L3 is that I wouldn't have to keep my hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road, as I do with EAP today. But I see your point that if the driver is reading a book or texting the car would need to be able to deal with situations that arise suddenly.

Perhaps an L3 system would drive on city streets and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, but would not handle turns. The computer would know when a turn is coming up and could alert the driver 30 seconds or a minute ahead. An L4 system would have to be able to handle turns. Just thinking off the top of my head here.

 

[Saghost]

You make some very good points. I guess I think of the difference between L3 and L4 as: L3 can get the driver in charge in ten seconds; L4 would have to find a safe place to park, to wake up the driver who's sleeping in the back seat, and might take five minutes to get fully awake and ready to drive. (Which as diplomat33 points out, is almost L5.)

Whether there are conditions where ten seconds vs. five minutes would make a difference, I don't know. Another way I think of L3 is that I wouldn't have to keep my hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road, as I do with EAP today. But I see your point that if the driver is reading a book or texting the car would need to be able to deal with situations that arise suddenly.

Perhaps an L3 system would drive on city streets and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, but would not handle turns. The computer would know when a turn is coming up and could alert the driver 30 seconds or a minute ahead. An L4 system would have to be able to handle turns. Just thinking off the top of my head here.

The thing is, level 3 systems have to know they'll have a problem "several" seconds before it becomes critical.

In a full speed freeway environment the car will probably have to take some sort of action in those several seconds anyway - even if that action is pull over safely.

The freeway traffic jam and city environments are more conducive to having a problem that you can wait ten seconds to react to - if nothing else, you can probably just stop the car, though that may annoy other drivers.

I really want a freeway level 3 system, but with his points above, that may first be a level 4 system that responds to any situation it can't handle by pulling onto the shoulder and stopping.

 

[mongo]

But only one rear camera and one side camera in each direction. The forward camera is protected by the windshield which can be cleared by the wipers (unless it's something like tar or heavy mud) but the rear and side cameras have no way to clean their lenses. And the rear camera is low to the ground where it can get splattered. Redundancy is standard wherever safety is an issue.

Note also that the forward camera can only see through that one tiny area of windshield. If your windshield gets splattered you can move your head around to see through the one area that's clear. The car needs sensor redundancy.

People handle driving when they get a full windshield of water splashed from another vehicle, and that is not using radar at all. High speed wipe mode is pretty darn quick.
Back up camera is not needed unless in reverse. Side are not needed unless changing lanes (or collision avoidance). For overtaking traffic (limp to side mode), the rear camera can cover the sides, and you have ultrasonics as a poor fallback. The car can also use it's turn to help coverage.

Then you need to calculate failure rates. Most of the car's suspension is not fault tolerant, same with the drive unit and steering. In that case parts just have a long useful life and usually fail gracefully. If the failure modes of the cameras are as well known, duplication is not needed.

 

[Dariushd]

By my reading, the OP currently has EAP, so doesn't that already include NoA?

Yeah, I do have EAP and really make use of it. I think having an improved system with hw3 updates is worthwhile even if the feature set doesn’t move up much in the short run. I do hope it does in the long run, auto pilot is very handy in traffic in LA, so at least the computer and cameras will keep up with that usage for the next five years. Leap of hope I guess to some extent, too. I just bought it thru my account. I should’ve gone in at 2k.

 

[geecee]

I too received an email to upgrade to FSD for $3k. I purchased my car in November 2018 and thought I had bought FSD since there were no other options available at the time. I now understand I bought EAP. What i'm curious about is why I never received an offer to upgrade for $2k earlier in the year like many others. Has this happened to anyone else?

 

[boriszima]

I too received an email to upgrade to FSD for $3k. I purchased my car in November 2018 and thought I had bought FSD since there were no other options available at the time. I now understand I bought EAP. What i'm curious about is why I never received an offer to upgrade for $2k earlier in the year like many others. Has this happened to anyone else?

Tesla is not the best and timely about sending these. I see news here and twitter often times a whole week before Tesla sends out emails if any.