Is Telsa really that much ahead?

[anonim1979]

...
ICE companies have been building complex multispeed transmissions for years, an EV transmission is the simplest of them all, single ratio, no clutches, torque converter, valvebodies or synchronisers etc. You've pretty much eliminated everything challenging from the transmission, you have a handful of gears and maybe 6 bearings, and a casing to hold them in place and keep the lubricant in. Their biggest worry is going to be making it as cheap and easy to manufacture and assemble as possible.
...

Extremely flawed example.
Those companies admitted themselves that they are building flawed low quality gearboxes designed to break (common practice for ICE cars - make customer pay and pay and pay again for repairs 'till he or she buys a new car):

See Tesla problems with Roadster's gearbox, ~35:25 has the best part <- click this for a direct link to that part, or watch whole video:

"Our legal defense; we were always incompetent"

 

[scaesare]

The reality is, the “efficiency” is more related to how big the car is than how good their EV technology is. The Roadster is far more “efficient” than the Model S simply because it is a lot smaller. The Model S has much more advanced hardware but it is a LOT bigger, so it requires more Wh/km.

Agreed...along with other design decisions:

- The i3 has skinny bicycle tires, whereas Tesla typically uses rather generous tire widths

- Aero rims vs. sporty/spoked style

- Lower/sporty vehicle ride height vs higher easier to access height

The same platform/drivetrain could easily see a 20-30% efficiency difference based on such factors (as was demonstrated on a recent thread where aero wheels alone made a 23+ % difference on one Model S test).

 

[david_42]

The Model 3 isn't in that chart, but it is rated at 126 eMPG. The only vehicle with a higher rating has a range of 124 miles and a battery about 1/3 the size of the LR's. It will be interesting to see how the standard battery changes the rating.

 

[Topher]

When I think of Tesla's advantage, the first thing that comes to mind is the Frunk. Not the actual frunk itself, the fact that there is enough room for it. The Bolt doesn't have a frunk. Why not? Because it is using all that space. The frunk is the result of making a whole lot of good small engineering decisions. Which is probably the result of a environment of striving for excellence.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Topher]

I would rate efficiencies in watt/hour per mile.

Please use Watt-hours / mile instead. That's watts TIMES hours.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Az_Rael]

When I think of Tesla's advantage, the first thing that comes to mind is the Frunk. Not the actual frunk itself, the fact that there is enough room for it. The Bolt doesn't have a frunk. Why not? Because it is using all that space. The frunk is the result of making a whole lot of good small engineering decisions. Which is probably the result of a environment of striving for excellence.

Thank you kindly.

Sort of, if you look at the side profile of a Bolt, it looks like they took out all the space the frunk would need, not that they filled the same space up. If you took the frunk out of a 3 it would have a profile closer to the Bolt’s. Some argue that Tesla increases safety that way, but I suspect it has more to do with looks since the Bolt has been getting very good safety ratings.

 

[Topher]

Sort of, if you look at the side profile of a Bolt, it looks like they took out all the space the frunk would need, not that they filled the same space up.

Maybe. Anyone have a couple of scaled pictures for direct comparison?

Thank you kindly.

 

[seattlite2004]

The Tesla's drive units are pretty elegant in packaging and installation location. The Bolt's drive unit is where a traditonal FWD Engine is located:

I got a chance to test drive the Bolt and fondled the Mod S/X yesterday at the Seattle Auto Show. I was very impressed with the Bolt...driving dynamics, interior design, fit and finish. On the T-Cars...I found at least one fit and finish issue on each model...loose seal on an S and a dropped bolt on the X's driver side door hinge area. The panoramic roof and the X's front winshield were very striking key discriminators for Tesla.

Now that I got a chance to drive and inspect every inch of the Bolt, along with the 38K local deals before fed rebate....I find the Bolt pretty dang compelling....and I'm in in-line west coast reservation holder.

Edit: Since the Bolt is under $42K....the purchase would be exempt from local/state sales tax...even more compelling... hmmm.

 

[N5329K]

Please use Watt-hours / mile instead. That's watts TIMES hours.

Thank you kindly.

You are absolutely right. Thanks for the correction. And if a lynx-eyed reader like you only found that to disagree with, I can assume the overall comparison was a good one.
Robin

 

[electracity]

Now that I got a chance to drive and inspect every inch of the Bolt, along with the 38K local deals before fed rebate....I find the Bolt pretty dang compelling....and I'm in in-line west coast reservation holder.

And Mary Barra apparently delivered the Bolt without a campout at a plant suffering from "production hell".

But unfortunately the Bolt still looks like an inexpensive car approved by a committee of automotive engineers.

 

[Doug_G]

And Mary Barra apparently delivered the Bolt without a campout at a plant suffering from "production hell".

But unfortunately the Bolt still looks like an inexpensive car approved by a committee of automotive engineers.

Sure, but how many are they building? Not many. Local dealers got 3-4 each for 2017.

 

[Cory151]

Watt hours per mile is also great because you can compare virtually any form of transport efficiency. For example my P85D averages around 320 Wh/mile while my Stealth electric bike averages about 48 Wh/mile.

As far as momentary power and efficiency goes, my Volt can get to about 18-19mph using 5 kilowatts of energy. While that same 5kw gets me to 53 mph on my electric bike. Ebikes are probaly he most efficient form of individual electronic transport, that Im aware of.

 

[seattlite2004]

Sure, but how many are they building? Not many. Local dealers got 3-4 each for 2017.

Maybe its a Canada thing. One of my local dealers that's giving at least a 5K discount from MSRP has 20+ in their inventory.

 

[Cory151]

Maybe its a Canada thing. One of my local dealers that's giving at least a 5K discount from MSRP has 20+ in their inventory.

Don't you mean the LG Bolt?

LG Bolt - Chevy Bolt made in Korea

 

[Olle]

I've been thinking about the lead that Tesla appears to have in the EV segment, and it really does seem quite significant. I'm talking about the core tech, not even the infrastructure of the supercharger network. I mean as we watch Tesla move into the permanent magnet motor solution as a natural iteration from the AC induction, it really has me wondering how much other optimization is really going on in their labs? While other manufacturers are trying hard to figure out how to make any kind of EV, Tesla is totally optimizing theirs. I think this is key, because efficiency is far more important with EV than ICE. The limitation of energy stored in a battery vs a fuel tank mandates this. Perspective: the 100 kWh battery pack has the equivalent energy storage as LESS than 3 gallons of gas (33.7 kW/gal gasoline per EPA). If the 4,700 lbs 100D Model S were as efficient as an ICE, it would have like 50 miles of range. While Tesla has been and continues to optimize these efficiencies (motor, inverter, switches, wiring, transmission, etc), it really just seems like an amazing position for Tesla. Thoughts?

EDIT: Scary, this was my 666th message

When looking at EPA numbers it seems most EVs are in the 100 mpge range at about 85% efficient, give or take. It doesn't seem that big of a differentiator even if Tesla could hypothetically take it to 95% efficiency. I believe that the major Tesla advantages to be:

1. the first company to mass (giga) produce EVs and their batteries, so that they can afford to sell very high kWh cars at affordable prices in high volume.
2. The startup advantage - being able to design clean products exactly the way people want them, vs legacy manufacturers which are bogged down with too many decision making layers, resulting in conflicting product strategies and subobtimal designs. As an example just look at how elegant the mechanical layout of the Model S is compared to the other ground up designed EVs as i3 and Bolt.
3. The brand. Tesla already built the strongest car brand in the world even though it has not permeated to the top of every official list, yet. But you are already starting to hear people in other contexts saying "the Tesla of (blank)", which always used to be "the Rolls Royce of..."
4. Elon Musk. He is probably the main reason they are so far ahead with his clear vision and relentless work.

 

[azred]

When I think of Tesla's advantage, the first thing that comes to mind is the Frunk. Not the actual frunk itself, the fact that there is enough room for it. The Bolt doesn't have a frunk. Why not? Because it is using all that space. The frunk is the result of making a whole lot of good small engineering decisions. Which is probably the result of a environment of striving for excellence.

Thank you kindly.

That’s an odd choice. I have a refresh S and the frunk is about as useless as the web browser. Too bad it is way too small for a donut spare. That would be a great feature.

 

[MotoEvCA]

I've been thinking about the lead that Tesla appears to have in the EV segment, and it really does seem quite significant. I'm talking about the core tech, not even the infrastructure of the supercharger network. I mean as we watch Tesla move into the permanent magnet motor solution as a natural iteration from the AC induction, it really has me wondering how much other optimization is really going on in their labs? While other manufacturers are trying hard to figure out how to make any kind of EV, Tesla is totally optimizing theirs. I think this is key, because efficiency is far more important with EV than ICE. The limitation of energy stored in a battery vs a fuel tank mandates this. Perspective: the 100 kWh battery pack has the equivalent energy storage as LESS than 3 gallons of gas (33.7 kW/gal gasoline per EPA). If the 4,700 lbs 100D Model S were as efficient as an ICE, it would have like 50 miles of range. While Tesla has been and continues to optimize these efficiencies (motor, inverter, switches, wiring, transmission, etc), it really just seems like an amazing position for Tesla.
EDIT: Scary, this was my 666th message

From a design and packaging perspective Tesla seems able to not be constrained by past practice and rethinks functionality over form.

Tesla is leading where many others are following in this respect (yes Toyota, I am pointing at you).

 

[EV-lutioin]

The Tesla's drive units are pretty elegant in packaging and installation location. The Bolt's drive unit is where a traditonal FWD Engine is located:

View attachment 259483
I got a chance to test drive the Bolt and fondled the Mod S/X yesterday at the Seattle Auto Show. I was very impressed with the Bolt...driving dynamics, interior design, fit and finish. On the T-Cars...I found at least one fit and finish issue on each model...loose seal on an S and a dropped bolt on the X's driver side door hinge area. The panoramic roof and the X's front winshield were very striking key discriminators for Tesla.

Now that I got a chance to drive and inspect every inch of the Bolt, along with the 38K local deals before fed rebate....I find the Bolt pretty dang compelling....and I'm in in-line west coast reservation holder.

Edit: Since the Bolt is under $42K....the purchase would be exempt from local/state sales tax...even more compelling... hmmm.

I test drove a Bolt too, nice car, but where are you going to charge it on a road trip? Once I had to use both EVGO and ChargePoint on a trip and ugh, they were terrible! That did it for me, Tesla or nothing.

 

[mikevbf]

The one aspect that has not been emphasized enough in this thread is batteries. Gigafactories = huge number of batteries = ability to mass produce electric cars. This is the area Tesla is way ahead, but the other car companies are starting to wake up. I believe at the point
(less than 5 years) where people start realizing not only how much better electric car drive, but also their value proposition with lower fuel and maintenance costs and eventual price decreases with lowering costs of batteries, there will be huge demand, but not enough batteries to fulfill that demand. Even if another emerging or established auto maker comes close to securing close to the number of batteries as Tesla, Tesla and company X will still not be able to produce enough cars for the demand because of batteries.

 

[insaneoctane]

The one aspect that has not been emphasized enough in this thread is batteries. Gigafactories = huge number of batteries = ability to mass produce electric cars. This is the area Tesla is way ahead, but the other car companies are starting to wake up. I believe at the point
(less than 5 years) where people start realizing not only how much better electric car drive, but also their value proposition with lower fuel and maintenance costs and eventual price decreases with lowering costs of batteries, there will be huge demand, but not enough batteries to fulfill that demand. Even if another emerging or established auto maker comes close to securing close to the number of batteries as Tesla, Tesla and company X will still not be able to produce enough cars for the demand because of batteries.

Excellent point. Not only are Tesla's batteries better (and thermally controled), showing the least degradation, but the Gigafactory will allow tesla to realize significantly greater profit margins than anyone else. That seems important on the most expensive part of the vehicle. Oh and they can totally control their carbon footprint (for those who care about that).