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Israel/Hamas conflict

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I am not questioning the rationale of the occupying force of Israel.

I am saying that although IDF is not in Gaza it still controls many aspects of the Gaza residents, including giving 24 hours to move critical patients on life-supporting machines from the north to South Gaza, which qualifies as occupying power according to Europe and the UN.

I think after last week, Israel will tolerate being called an "occupying power" by Europe and the UN if that is what it takes to protect thousands of their civilians from being massacred by Hamas.

There is simply zero chance for peace with Gaza with Hamas in the picture.
 
Gaza is not occupied by IDF or any Israeli authority. Gaza is occupied by Hamas.

Israel has no prison guards in this “open-air prison.” Hamas has sole police and other governance authority in Gaza.

Hamas are the occupiers.

According to Université de Genève (Geneva Academy):

"Military occupation of Palestine by Israel

Conflict type: Military occupation

Israel is occupying the territory of Palestine. Israel is internationally recognised as the occupying power in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

Overview
Israel has occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip since the end of the Six-Day War in 1967. Today, this prolonged occupation of the territory of Palestine takes a unique form.

Israel is the occupying power in the West Bank. However, as a result of the Oslo Accords, direct authority over the West Bank is divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Despite the modalities of this agreement, Israel retains overall control over the entire territory.

Israel withdrew its ground forces from the Gaza Strip in 2005, as part of a unilateral disengagement plan. However, consequent to the level of control still exercised by Israel over the Gaza Strip, Israel continues to be recognised as the occupying power."
 
consequent to the level of control still exercised by Israel over the Gaza Strip, Israel continues to be recognised as the occupying power."

Consequent to the level of control exercised by HAMAS over the Gaza Strip, Hamas is the occupying power.

That’s just the f’ing reality, and empty proclamations don’t change that. Hamas is the occupying power in Gaza.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, has had zero authority inside Gaza since then, and Gaza went even deeper into it’s own jihadist toilet.

Israel, and Egypt by the way, BOTH have had a limited BLOCKADE on Gaza. Only now, after Hamas kills over a thousand innocents, Israel has a total blockade.

People who pretend to not understand the difference between “occupation” and “limited blockade” are just playing stupid unhelpful games.
 
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West unforced errors/


It's a paywall so I can't read what it meant.

But it's not new that:

Netanyahu focuses on the pacified West Bank, with no armed resistance as a greater threat than Hamas who has been waging a terrorist campaign.


It was also mentioned in post # 105:


www.972mag.com

The end of the Netanyahu doctrine

The prime minister's claim that Middle East peace was possible without the Palestinians has been shattered by Hamas' incursion, and the ensuing war.
www.972mag.com
www.972mag.com

The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was angry at the idea of overthrowing the Hamas:

"Galit Distel Atbaryan, wrote in May 2019, when she was yet to enter politics but was known as a prominent Netanyahu supporter. “And Netanyahu, in a kind of outrageous, almost unimaginable restraint, does not do the easiest thing: getting the IDF to overthrow the organization. "

"Indeed, Netanyahu himself had effectively admitted as much a couple of months before Distel Atbaryan made her comments, when he declared in a Likud meeting that “anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas. This is part of our strategy, to isolate Palestinians in Gaza from Palestinians in Judea and Samaria.”
 
There is no doubt that many Israelis have mistreated Palestinians over the years - but it goes in both directions and doesn't happen in a vacuum. Israel being attacked numerous times by all of their Arab neighbors since 1948, not to mention the incomprehensible and disgusting barbarity of Hamas targeting women and children this month can hearden some hearts.

I imagine Hamas' version of Mickey Mouse indoctrinating children into Anti-Semitism is a powerful recruitment tool as well. Hamas lying about killing all their people in a hospital this week and blaming it on Israel (amplified by our garbage Media) can also be a powerful recruitment tool.


Regardless, it is all moot when one side (Hamas) refuses all peace negotiations and says over and over again they would like to see every Jew on earth killed.

So until Hamas is driven from power - what is there to talk about?

The system has a number of positive feedback loops that further the distrust and feed the violence. Even if the Israelis make their government employees treat the Palestinians neutrally, they can't control everything individual citizens do. They can prosecute private citizens who level violence on Palestinians, but they really can't stop lower level abuse from happening. The government of Israel has gone back and forth on allowing Israelis to take Palestinian land and build new homes. In some cases the more conservative governments have given permission, but more liberal governments have banned settlements, but people do it anyway.

On a low level Israeli settlements have been encroaching on Palestinian land for decades.

Someone told the story of an old woman chastising a Palestinian for sweeping the street in front of her house. That sort of dynamic is very similar to the Jim Crow South in the US before the Civil Rights Act ended the official racism. The Civil Rights Act didn't end racism, it pushed it underground until recently.

ML King succeeded because there were more violent movements promising to act out if something wasn't done.

Potentially violent groups can play a role in these sorts of situations, but the peaceful groups need to be in the front seat which is not the case in Gaza. The more dominant power also needs to be willing to compromise and it helps tremendously if the dominant power also has a strong segment of their population who are sympathetic to the underclass demanding rights. Israel doesn't have those elements and while the PLO is being fairly peaceful, over in Gaza Hamas is running the show.

A large percentage of Israelis see Palestinians as just animals and the Palestinian schools are actively teaching their children that Jews evolved from animals they consider disgusting.

There was an episode in the original Star Trek about a world where there were only two people left due to mutual genocide. One race was white on the left half and black on the right and the other was the opposite. To the outside observers their beef appeared ludicrous, but they were both intent on destroying the other. There are elements of that in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In Star Trek they gave up trying to get the two sides to live in peace and left them locked in a permanent battle neither could win.

Sometimes it isn't possible to get people to see reason and live in peace with others. This conflict is one of these situations.
 
Sometimes it isn't possible to get people to see reason and live in peace with others. This conflict is one of these situations.

Partition of India comes to mind.

Believe something like 14 million people were displaced and/or relocated and over 1 million killed due to conflict between Muslims and Hindus.

Tens of millions of Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians and Jews were relocated after WWII as well.

These staggering numbers makes the Israeli/Arab conflicts look like nothing by comparison.

Sometimes we need to separate people if we want lasting peace. Trying to keep Gaza cobbled together as part of a future "Palestine" seems like a fool's errand at this point and will only perpetuate violence and instability.
 
Hamas rejects a two state solution. It's impossible to negotiate any kind of lasting peace between the Palestinians and Israelis without two independent states. Dismantling Hamas and allowing more reasonable Palestinians to rise to power is the only sensible option.
I want preface my remarks. I don't have a serious interest in either this thread or the conflict. The problem of a Palestinian homeland goes back to the early 1920s, when the British Palestine Mandate was defined as what later would be called Palestine plus the Transjordan, what is now the present Kingdom of Jordan. The British colonial rulers subsequently partitioned Palestine into a far smaller territory and Jordan. The point of all this is that just like the partition of India and Pakistan, the further partition of Israel and an even smaller Palestine created massive dislocations . Unfortunately, all this rampant colonial irresponsibility probably can never be undone, primarily because Jordan has no interest in the plight of the present day Palestinian population that is not within its borders. It's not just the Israelis that don't want the Palestinians. Jordan doesn't want them either.

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It says the Hamas occupiers stole humanitarian aid and taxed the wages the Gazans earned in Israel to fund their Jihadist terror plans. Hamas can do that because they have total dominion over Gaza. Hamas are the occupiers.
Since Hamas is the governing body, there is no surprise that it has been taxing people.

Since Hamas is a terrorist organization, there is no surprise that it performs terrorism.

UNWRA has retracted the claim that Hamas stole the humanitarian aid.

Israel doesn't believe the retraction.


Thanks for the summary of the pay wall article. I think you did a pretty good job but I doubt the word "occupiers" is in the article.
 
I am listening to the All in podcast and I'm impressed by their balanced view of the situation in Israel. Reached the point where Sacks mentions a Cornell professor giving a pro Hamas speech where he stated that he was exhilarated and energized by the terrorist attack. Absolutely sickening. Read this article where a Stanford prof. made Jewish students stand in a corner and minimized the 6 million deaths of Jews in the Holocaust. Seems like there is a sickness in many of our Ivy League schools that ought to be rooted out.

 
Centrism is where it is at but not centrists are equally virtuous.
  • Islamophobe plus anti-semite
  • 2 state solution or nothing
  • Blame Netanyahu plus Hamas equally
  • Never blaming anyone - mediation
  • Ignorant of both plights and don't take interest
  • America first - a polarised America could be a greater danger
  • Believing the issue should be dealt with locally
  • Believing west should take charge and knock heads together
  • Pacifist
  • Jews that are getting cancelled by Jews
  • Anti Hamas, pro PLO
  • Anti ground war
  • Anti bombing
  • Pro senior Hamas surgical assignations
  • etc.
Rather than live in a polarised world, I would like the discussion to be which of these is better than others. Following that we might get onto suggesting solutions.
 
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You know, if Sacks said it then it was almost certainly false. Fix your sources. Sources like Sacks will turn anyone into an idiot.

Trust me, I'm not a big David Sacks fan either. But he does have a more moderate view of the Israel situation than I expected. If you did a quick Google search like I did, you'd find plenty of articles about the Cornell prof rejoicing over Hamas murdering Israeli civilians, and other deplorable behavior on Ivy League campuses.
 
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