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Israel/Hamas conflict

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Israel has a global problem with left wing parties of many countries espousing hate against them. USA is just one example of rampant hate emanating from College campuses. A good read from the Telegraph today:

The vast majority of this is pro Palestine support rather than anti-semetic. They are not the same thing. If Palestinians were all well housed etc. there would be minimal protests.
 
I can't believe this is taking the news cycle from the Ukraine War, why does the news always cover dumpster fires like Trump instead of news about important events. It's not like there are good people on either side in this war, they seem to deserve each other at this point. There may have been a time when that wasn't true, I am too young to know.
 
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This is a brilliant interview with an international law attorney detailing Israel’s rights and obligations in response to the Hamas attacks. She makes clear for instance that Israel has an obligation to pursue the terrorists but not to provide aid to the terrorists or allow aid that is likely to be diverted to the terrorists and good points regarding civilian casualties in Gaza.

 
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The vast majority of this is pro Palestine support rather than anti-semetic. They are not the same thing. If Palestinians were all well housed etc. there would be minimal protests.

Yup and this is where the political morass that is Israel-Palestine begins. My father was pointing this out when I was a kid in the 70s. Whenever anyone criticizes Israel for any reason, there are people from the pro-Israel lobby who pounce on that and call it anti-Semitic. It has had the effect of making almost all US politicians very pro-Israel, or at minimum willing to go along with any pro-Israel legislation. It has made anything but token support of the Palestinian cause a political death sentence in the US.

These statements and protests are more pro Palestinian than anti-Jewish. Thinking people can separate the policies of the government of Israel from the ethnic identity or religion of Jewishness. But the people crying anti-Semitism don't want that distinction to be made because if the Israelis are seen as a downtrodden minority then they aren't the bad guys.

Personally I don't have any issues with any religious or ethnic group. The Jewish people have managed to maintain their identity over 2000 years despite a lot of pressure to be absorbed into the ethnic groups that surrounded them. They were badly abused by mostly Christian populations during that time. Ironically it was Muslim countries that were much more tolerant of Jewish people. Up until the mid-20th century almost all predominantly Muslim realms had laws that allowed non-Muslims to live amongst them in peace. These peoples usually had to pay an extra tax, but that was it.

The anti-Semisitm in the Muslim world started when Jewish people started moving back to Palestine and started displacing the Muslims who had lived there for centuries. Even early on they were tolerated. The Jewish settlers bought their land and the Muslims who moved out made bank on the deal. But when the Jewish population got big enough they began to be seen as a "problem" and anti-Semitic rhetoric coming out of Germany at the time found a receptive ear among a population who saw themselves as being overrun with Jews.

After WW II the Christian world became much more sympathetic to the Jewish people due to collective guilt over the Holocaust and the Muslim world became increasingly less tolerant of Jewishness. Now the Christian and post-Christian world is pro-Israel and the Muslim world is anti. Lobbyists in the west are quick to conflate Israel with Jewishness to keep any criticism of Israel down.

Israel, the state and individuals within that state, has done a number of wrongs with regards to the Palestinians. The religious beliefs or ethnic identities of the people involved is immaterial in my mind, but among the participants it is driving them on.

To take another conflict which is defined in religious terms: Northern Ireland. The two sides have been identified as Catholic and Protestant since the beginning of the conflict, but at the core of the conflict is really the native Irish who were there first vs the settlers who moved in and built up the region. The natives are almost all traditionally Catholic and those moving in were almost all Protestants, so the conflict is described as a religious one, but in reality the religions are, at best, secondary to the true conflict.

Israel-Palestine has similar dynamics, but it favors a number of political groups to cast it as a religious battle.
 
FWIW: You can be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians but timing certainly matters too (although I d suggest there is a lot more anti-Semites in those protests then just pro-Palestinian).

In any event, on September 12th 2001 and shortly thereafter, would it have been appropriate for gatherings around the US/world to protest the plight of the Saudis after thousands of innocent Americans were murdered in cold blood?

That is the same context for Israel.

I‘d also add that the pro-Israeli lobby is much weaker today, particularly as the next generation of leaders emerge that were not directly impacted by the Holocaust.
 
Sounds like some limited operations have already started inside Gaza. I think the full scale operation will be very soon. Plenty of airstrikes softening up Hamas strongholds in Gaza. Might be a very quick and intense hammer blow to pulverize the terrorist group/s.

And yes, at the same time..killing innocent palestinian civilians will only make the situation worse. Is it going to collateral dame again, when thousands of non- Hamas people are killed? It will only inflame and prolong the possible beginning of an expanding war. As of today, over 4,300 people have been killed in Gaza and more than 13,500 injured since the Israel-Hamas war began, according to Palestinian authorities. 1,400 people were killed by the terrorists in Israel..enough of "an eye for an eye?
 
FWIW: You can be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians but timing certainly matters too (although I d suggest there is a lot more anti-Semites in those protests then just pro-Palestinian).

In any event, on September 12th 2001 and shortly thereafter, would it have been appropriate for gatherings around the US/world to protest the plight of the Saudis after thousands of innocent Americans were murdered in cold blood?

That is the same context for Israel.

I‘d also add that the pro-Israeli lobby is much weaker today, particularly as the next generation of leaders emerge that were not directly impacted by the Holocaust.

As of 10/11/2023, the poll still favors Israel at 65%, which is pro-Israel vs 8% which is critical of Israel. That's a huge gap:

4zXXkQL.jpg
 
And yes, at the same time..killing innocent palestinian civilians will only make the situation worse. Is it going to collateral dame again, when thousands of non- Hamas people are killed? It will only inflame and prolong the possible beginning of an expanding war. As of today, over 4,300 people have been killed in Gaza and more than 13,500 injured since the Israel-Hamas war began, according to Palestinian authorities. 1,400 people were killed by the terrorists in Israel..enough of "an eye for an eye?
It has absolutely nothing to do with an eye for an eye. Israel has a duty to protect it's citizenry. That Hamas uses human shields in such a despicable manner is simply a reflection upon them.

Also, those same Palestinian authorities claim that ~500 were killed in the Islamic Jihad rocket dud attack on the hospital parking lot- that most intelligent OSINT practitioners peg at much closer to 50 fatalities. Oh, and they still insist that it was an Israeli bomb, not a failed weapon fired by their own countrymen. Hamas & Islamic Jihad are the only groups that rejoice in civilian deaths in this conflict.
 
It has absolutely nothing to do with an eye for an eye. Israel has a duty to protect it's citizenry. That Hamas uses human shields in such a despicable manner is simply a reflection upon them.

Also, those same Palestinian authorities claim that ~500 were killed in the Islamic Jihad rocket dud attack on the hospital parking lot- that most intelligent OSINT practitioners peg at much closer to 50 fatalities. Oh, and they still insist that it was an Israeli bomb, not a failed weapon fired by their own countrymen. Hamas & Islamic Jihad are the only groups that rejoice in civilian deaths in this conflict.
Since you've demonstrated a habit of passing on "information" from bad sources, perhaps you could provide your sources when making claims like this. It might improve the chance that people believe what you write. I'm quite sure that you personally cannot know who does or does not "rejoice in civilian deaths".
 
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I think America's support is far more valuable to Israel than teenage Britons.

 
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First 2023 IDF casualty reported in Gaza:


"One Israeli soldier was killed, while “one was moderately injured, and two were lightly injured as a result of an anti-tank missile”, the Israeli military said.

The military said the purpose of the raid was to locate Hamas captives in Gaza’s Khan Younis area and to “thwart terrorist infrastructure”.

The IDF left behind the 1 damaged tank and 2 damaged military bulldozers in Gaza as the IDF troops withdrew back to Israel.

Hamas and Israeli troops clash in Gaza as airstrikes intensify

It looks like Khan Younis is in South Gaza and it's about 5 miles west of the Israel border.

1698050548402.png


That is quite a good distance for tanks and bulldozers to travel, considering that's more than half of the width of Gaza. 3 more miles and you would arrive at the sea!

In contrast, Hamas was able to attack as far away as Ofakim, which is around 11 miles from the border. They stayed there about 20 hours before the IDF could take back the town of 34,000 residents.

gettyimages-1712262777.jpg
 
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I think America's support is far more valuable to Israel than teenage Britons.

Given that the UK has been the US’ only ally on some occasions I think it has merit. This generation will have outsized power in just ten years just as UK millennials currently do in the civil service.

I am keen as always to keep everyone in the same tent because this division won’t be going away this century.
 
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