Israel/Hamas conflict

[wdolson]

The majority of Muslim wars are among themselves and not against Western civilization.

"In 2012, there were six civil wars worldwide. All took place within Muslim countries: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen..."

Are Muslim countries more violent?

In Afghanistan, the pro-Taliban Muslims were fighting against the pro-US Muslims. As soon as the US gave the pro-Taliban Muslims the peace deal, they stopped shooting at the US personnels but continued to shoot at the pro-US Muslims.

Majority of 1.8 billion Muslim in the world co-exist peacefully with other non-Muslims fine.

The majority of Muslim countries are also at peace with one another and with their neighbors. Many of the civil wars going on in the world in 2012 were the backside of the Arab Spring which was caused by a grain shortage that sent the cost of grain sky high and countries that were dependent on that grain has civil unrest. Countries that were not completely dependent on imported grain didn't have the unrest. The dependency is more common in the Muslim world than anywhere else.

Not all that long before 2012 a lot of countries that were not Muslim were in civil wars: Macedonia, Cambodia, Nepal, Liberia, Congo, etc.

It's east to say "all x are like y", but it's more difficult to look at the nuances. There are patterns, but some are real patterns and some are false trails that fall apart on inspection.

The roots of the different conflicts in the Muslim world are different country to country. The causes of the conflict in Palestine have completely different roots from the conflict in Afghanistan.

In Palestine two different groups have historical claims to the same land. Making things more difficult three world religions claim the same city in the region as a holy city. One group's claims are fairly well documented, but were broken by the Romans in the 1st century CE. The other group has a more recent claim of possession for the last 2000 years.

The rest of the world is divided about the claims too. For the Muslim world, this looks a lot like a modern repeat of the crusades with a proxy group as the crusaders. For the European world, there is a collective guilt about what happened in the Holocaust and Israel is sort of compensation for that.

The problem is a good argument can be made for both groups' claim. Ultimately it's one of the world's most intractable problems. People wring their hands and demand a negotiated settlement, but a negotiated settlement is only possible when both sides are willing to give something. At this point there are a few on each side willing to compromise, but enough people willing to blow up any compromise if it looked like it was going to happen that in reality a compromise is not possible.

Sometimes conflicts can't be solved. At least not in the moment. The conflict is going to continue until both sides are willing to compromise or one side is eliminated. Until then, it's going to churn on.

I, like many outsiders, think the two state solution is the best answer, but the players on the board don't think so. Until they do, nothing is going to happen. Wars don't end because outsiders want it to happen.

[This appeared to post yesterday, but I guess it didn't.]

 

[wdolson]

If you need further evidence of the barbarity of Hamas, watch this clip. Apparently, they were slaughtering babies and some by beheading. If the IDF kills non-combatants, it is typically collateral damage. I am pretty sure this wasn't collateral damage. Beheading someone is a pretty emotional act.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711737060732871140

It does appear that confirmation is coming in about this, but it is also wise to be skeptical about these sorts of claims. When the Germans invaded Belgium in 1914, there were stories of Germans throwing babies into the air and spearing them on their bayonets. Similarly there were stories of Iraqis in 1991 going into the NICU in Kuwaiti hospitals and taking the babies off life support to steal their equipment. I believe the Iraqis did steal some hospital equipment that was not in use, but they never took anyone off life support to do it.

Stories of barbarity against young children is an old trope in warfare to turn people against the enemy.

Russia's documented brutality against Ukrainian civilians has given license for Hamas to be as brutal as possible. Though they know they will be condemned in the western media, they figure they are just acting in line with the Russian way of thinking. It's another reason why Russia needs to lose the war in Ukraine.

 

[Tam]

To be clear on language describing who is indigenous, Jews/Israelis are indigenous to Israel. Their history of ties there pre-dates any known group of people still in existence today by a very long time. Perhaps not the entirety of land currently under their control is tied to them, but their ancestral connection is about as deep as it gets.

Depends on how far back.

Recently the state of Israel was established in 1948. Before that, very few Jews were found in the land of the Palestinians because they were scattered around the world.

According to the Bible, Abraham was living in the area among the Gentiles, but God did not give that land from the Gentiles to him while he was still alive.

The Jews then migrated to Egypt. Initially, they were doing very well as Joseph became “Lord of Pharaoh's House.”

However, later on, they became slaves in Egypt, and with the Exodus, Moses led them out of Egypt to reclaim what God had promised them: "a land flowing with milk and honey."

The Jews were not in that land at that time. Joshua had to take over that land by slaughtering the indigenous people as instructed by God: “you must devote them to complete destruction. You shall make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them.” Deuteronomy 7:1-2.

“But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction…” Deuteronomy 20:16-17

Later on, under the King of Judah, the Babylonians conquered the land, and the Jews were forcefully removed from the land.

After the fall of Babylon, only a few, like 50,000 Jews, left Babylon to return to the land of Judah, while most stayed in Babylon.

In summary, the Jews lived among the Gentiles during Abraham’s time but left and abandoned the land.

They then returned and slaughtered the indigenous people to take over the “ land flowing with milk and honey."

The killers who annihilated indigenous people don't sound "indigenous."

 

[iPlug]

Depends on how far back.

Outside records corroborate "Israel" was known beyond their land at least as early as 1209 BCE when that name appeared on the Stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah.

The Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah are estimated by archaeologists and historians to have existed by ~900 BCE.

So to again clarify, if we are to name one of the groups of this thread as indigenous (someone erroneously claimed "the indigenous Palestine people and the Israelis")...

 

[DayTrippin]

It does appear that confirmation is coming in about this, but it is also wise to be skeptical about these sorts of claims. When the Germans invaded Belgium in 1914, there were stories of Germans throwing babies into the air and spearing them on their bayonets. Similarly there were stories of Iraqis in 1991 going into the NICU in Kuwaiti hospitals and taking the babies off life support to steal their equipment. I believe the Iraqis did steal some hospital equipment that was not in use, but they never took anyone off life support to do it.

Stories of barbarity against young children is an old trope in warfare to turn people against the enemy.

Russia's documented brutality against Ukrainian civilians has given license for Hamas to be as brutal as possible. Though they know they will be condemned in the western media, they figure they are just acting in line with the Russian way of thinking. It's another reason why Russia needs to lose the war in Ukraine.

I have seen this in multiple sources. I didn't post when I saw the first one roll in. That is a good point nonetheless.

 

[DayTrippin]

For the rest, it's a tragedy when children are victims. Everybody agrees.
This is also why people condemns IDF when it kills them: these are the child fatalities in Palestine in the last 20 years. Please count them.

Distribution of Palestinian Child Fatalities by Month

www.dci-palestine.org

There is a moral difference when children are deliberately targeted versus collateral damage. Generally Israel has had a "knock" before attack policy where they gave warning before bombing buildings. Hamas clearly doesn't and never has.

So while sad that Palestinian children have died, they were not directly attacked. Nor does the link list the cause of death. Saying "This table shows the number of children killed as a result of Israeli military and settler presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" is pretty ambiguous if you don't list the cause of death. That is a pretty broad stroke. So if there is an Israeli settler nearby, like 500m away, an a child dies, are they blaming it on the Israeli settler? To me this chart says nothing meaningful. Sad to see all the dead children but without the direct cause, it is pretty much worthless. They say "killed", but how?

Collateral damage vs direct attach has no moral equivalence.

 

[wdolson]

Outside records corroborate "Israel" was known beyond their land at least as early as 1209 BCE when that name appeared on the Stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah.

The Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah are estimated by archaeologists and historians to have existed by ~900 BCE.

So to again clarify, if we are to name one of the groups of this thread as indigenous (someone erroneously claimed "the indigenous Palestine people and the Israelis")...

If you go back far enough every "indigenous" people comes from somewhere else except for Africans. The people of Europe and Asia originated in Africa where they mixed with the Neanderthal who had been there longer. The indigenous people of the New World and Australia migrated there during the last ice age.

The Celts are the indigenous group in parts of the British Isles, but they most likely originated in modern day Austria.

The Palestinians have been in Palestine for nearly 2000 years. Are they indigenous by now? The Israelis have an older claim, but few of them have been around Palestine for 2000 years.

In the history of the world there are few cases where a people can document where they came from further back than a thousand years or so. Many of the people's of central Europe are descended from the barbarian bands that sacked the Roman Empire in the 100-500 CE, but these people were not literate so they have no documentation of their migrations. By the time they became literate they were settled on the lands they are on now.

What makes the Jewish claim different is it goes further back in time than any other historical claims because they were literate before any other group that became migratory. There are other groups such as the Greeks who were literate at the same time period, but they didn't go anywhere. Greece has been invaded from time to time, but nobody today disputes that Athens belongs to Greece.

 

[Skipdd]

As far as I understand that news hasn't been verified, I've read reports on X it was launched by i24 News, which Haaretz has said in the past to spread disinformation.

For the rest, it's a tragedy when children are victims. Everybody agrees.
This is also why people condemns IDF when it kills them: these are the child fatalities in Palestine in the last 20 years. Please count them.

Distribution of Palestinian Child Fatalities by Month

www.dci-palestine.org

See the attached. From what I see and read it was verified.

Apologies if it posts twice, but it doesn’t always render with just the first link. The second is I believe a discussion of the sources, from a French journalist.
Margot Haddad, who works for a major French television station, reports:

"That's it, the information is out. It's so gruesome that no one wanted to reveal it until they had 100% confirmation.
Infants, children under 2 years old were beheaded by Hamas in the Kibbutz of Kfar Aza. It is a horror, a massacre.
For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which I was able to cross-check. But the strongest source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711799270716608855

 

[Skipdd]

Offer for land? It's more like a practice of "Israeli settlements" and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map pretty soon.

It's doubtful that even when the Palestinians are wiped off the map, the cycle of revenge killings will ever stop if there's no negotiation for peace.

Respectfully, two points. First, offering land to a group that includes extremists such as Hamas, whose charter is to eradicate Israel and Jews, is a problem. It’s no different than Zelensky in UKR refusing to negotiate peace with Putin/Russia that includes ceding part of Ukraine to Russia. It won’t work. I’ve seen a number of documents supporting this. Here is one which even goes further. Read the quote under the picture - pretty clear.
I will look for others and post them later.

Second, the amount of land that Israel has is very small. Most of the surrounding Arab countries are much larger. They could offer a portion of their land to help, but none have been willing to do so. And yet, a number host some of the extremist/terrorist organizations.

 

[Skipdd]

Gaza’s shock attack has terrified Israelis. It should also unveil the context

The dread Israelis are feeling, myself included, has been the daily experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long.

www.972mag.com

The article is written by an Israeli:

"Contrary to what many Israelis are saying, and while the army was clearly caught completely off guard by this invasion, this is not a “unilateral” or “unprovoked” attack. The dread Israelis are feeling right now, myself included, is a sliver of what Palestinians have been feeling on a daily basis under the decades-long military regime in the West Bank, and under the siege and repeated assaults on Gaza. "

It's not an excuse for atrocities, but don't be surprised when someone boils the water and then wonders why the kettle starts to boil and whistle.

Some factors for the attacks:

1) The myth of safety in classifying Palestinians as irrelevant: "For years, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been making the case that peace can be achieved without talking to Palestinians or making any concessions."

2) "The Israeli army is routinely raiding into Palestinian cities and refugee camps."

3) "The far-right government is giving settlers an entirely free hand to set up new illegal outposts and launch pogroms on Palestinian towns and villages, with soldiers accompanying the settlers and killing or maiming Palestinians trying to defend their homes.

4) "Amid the high holidays, Jewish extremists are challenging the “status quo” around the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, backed by politicians who share their ideology."

5) "In Gaza, meanwhile, the ongoing siege is continuously destroying the lives of over two million Palestinians, many of whom are living in extreme poverty, with little access to clean water and about four hours of electricity a day. This siege has no official endgame; even an Israeli State Comptroller report found that the government has never discussed long-term solutions to ending the blockade, nor seriously considered any alternatives to recurring rounds of war and death. It is literally the only option this government, and its predecessors, have on the table."


Current non-solution:

"The only answers that consecutive Israeli governments have offered to the problem of Palestinian attacks from Gaza have been in the form of band aids: if they come from the ground, we will build a wall; if they come through tunnels, we will build an underground barrier; if they fire rockets, we’ll set up interceptors; if they are killing some of ours, we will kill many more of them. And so it goes on and on."

"there is no military solution to Israel’s problem with Gaza, nor to the resistance that naturally emerges as a response to violent apartheid."

The solution:

"As I write these words, I am sitting at home in Tel Aviv, trying to figure out how to protect my family in a house with no shelter or safe room, following with growing panic the reports and rumors of horrible events taking place in the Israeli towns near Gaza which are under attack. I see people, some of them my friends, calling on social media to attack Gaza more fiercely than ever before. Some Israelis are saying that now is the time to eradicate Gaza entirely — essentially calling for genocide. Through all the explosions, the dread and the bloodshed, speaking about peaceful solutions seems like madness to them.

Yet I remember that everything that I am feeling now, which every Israeli must be sharing, has been the life experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long. The only solution, as it has always been, is to bring an end of apartheid, occupation, and siege, and promote a future based on justice and equality for all of us. It is not in spite of the horror that we have to change course — it is exactly because of it."

It is true that some Israelis have this view. Undoubtedly it is complicated. Personally, I believe Netanyahu exacerbated the situation with his action and inactions. But if Ukraine has taught me anything over the past year and a half, there can be no negotiations with groups that foreswear your right to exist, that encourage brutality, that commit heinous acts. What comes after might allow for a change, but as I posted already, personally I don’t see a solution without the other Arab states contributing to the solution. Let’s don’t excuse in any way what Hamas did, what their doctrine is. THAT needs to be dealt with first.

 

[Skipdd]

I have a very good friend who lives in Israel. He said, “It is a small country and everybody knows someone who was killed or kidnapped. That makes it all personal not just a news article.“ Now imagine that where you live.

 

[iPlug]

If you go back far enough every "indigenous" people comes from somewhere else except for Africans...Neanderthal who had been there longer...

Indeed, one can continue on this interesting exercise, going back to the first life form, the "real" indigenous entity...

The Palestinians have been in Palestine for nearly 2000 years.

That is not commonly accepted for "modern" Palestinians. Problem is, what we call Palestinians today - the people/ethnic/cultural groupings - is a relatively recent phenomenon - since the mid 20th century. For most of history, being a "Palestinian" meant anyone born or living in such a referenced land.

Then there is further confusing nomenclature. The term Palestine is derived from the Hebrew word for the Philistines who were an ancient people most likely of Greek ancestry and of no relation to modern Palestinians.

But this too was not the point. Someone claimed modern Palestinians were indigenous while strongly suggesting Israelis were not. Just important to clear up that disinformation.

 

[wdolson]

Indeed, one can continue on this interesting exercise, going back to the first life form, the "real" indigenous entity...


That is not commonly accepted for "modern" Palestinians. Problem is, what we call Palestinians today - the people/ethnic/cultural groupings - is a relatively recent phenomenon - since the mid 20th century. For most of history, being a "Palestinian" meant anyone born or living in such a referenced land.

Then there is further confusing nomenclature. The term Palestine is derived from the Hebrew word for the Philistines who were an ancient people most likely of Greek ancestry and of no relation to modern Palestinians.

But this too was not the point. Someone claimed modern Palestinians were indigenous while strongly suggesting Israelis were not. Just important to clear up that disinformation.

The identity of the people who identify as the Palestinians dates from the 20th century. Another legacy of the British who carved out the area as a separate territory.

The ancestors of the current Palestinians have been there for a very long time. Maybe not 2000 years, but far enough back that nobody knows for sure when their families got there.

 

[madodel]

A fairly simplistic history of the Israel/Palestine map.

 

[aubreymcfato]

See the attached. From what I see and read it was verified.

Apologies if it posts twice, but it doesn’t always render with just the first link. The second is I believe a discussion of the sources, from a French journalist.
Margot Haddad, who works for a major French television station, reports:

"That's it, the information is out. It's so gruesome that no one wanted to reveal it until they had 100% confirmation.
Infants, children under 2 years old were beheaded by Hamas in the Kibbutz of Kfar Aza. It is a horror, a massacre.
For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which I was able to cross-check. But the strongest source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711799270716608855

Still not verified in the most trustworthy sources I looked into.

 

[Skipdd]

Still not verified in the most trustworthy sources I looked into.

Please share where you are seeking to see it.

 

[aubreymcfato]

Please share where you are seeking to see it.

From a very fact-based, and slightly pro-israel, Italian journal:

"Doubts are emerging about the reliability of a widely circulated news from yesterday to today: the one claiming that in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Azza, attacked by Hamas, decapitated children's bodies were found. On social networks and in some international media, this was labeled as the most heinous act committed by Hamas in the recent days' civilian massacres in Israel. However, there have been no confirmations of its veracity so far, not even from Israel.

The news was initially reported by an Israeli television channel i24news journalist, Nicole Zedeck, who said she had been told this during a live broadcast from Kfar Azza by some Israeli soldiers. However, she had not personally seen the children's bodies. Zedeck had been invited to the scene along with other Israeli and international journalists by the Israeli army. From there, the news spread on social networks and in other newspapers.

Other journalists who were there are saying that they were not told the story of decapitated children, and they did not receive any on-site confirmation. Oren Ziv, a journalist from the reputable Israeli news site +972 Magazine, said that during the visit, journalists on-site could freely and privately talk to hundreds of soldiers, but no one mentioned decapitated children to him. Another French journalist who was there, Samuel Forey, wrote: "No one told me about decapitations, let alone decapitated children, and certainly not 40 decapitated children" (a number that often circulated in those who reported the news). Even the spokesperson of the Israeli army said he couldn't confirm the news, although he mentioned being "aware of the heinous acts Hamas is capable of."

Among the newspapers that reported the news without due caution is The Independent, which received particular criticism because on Wednesday morning, it had a highly contradictory headline on its front page: first, it mentioned women and children decapitated, then it said that the bodies were hidden, and therefore, "it is impossible to verify it."

 

[replicant]

From a very fact-based, and slightly pro-israel, Italian journal:

"Doubts are emerging about the reliability of a widely circulated news from yesterday to today: the one claiming that in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Azza, attacked by Hamas, decapitated children's bodies were found. On social networks and in some international media, this was labeled as the most heinous act committed by Hamas in the recent days' civilian massacres in Israel. However, there have been no confirmations of its veracity so far, not even from Israel.

The news was initially reported by an Israeli television channel i24news journalist, Nicole Zedeck, who said she had been told this during a live broadcast from Kfar Azza by some Israeli soldiers. However, she had not personally seen the children's bodies. Zedeck had been invited to the scene along with other Israeli and international journalists by the Israeli army. From there, the news spread on social networks and in other newspapers.

Other journalists who were there are saying that they were not told the story of decapitated children, and they did not receive any on-site confirmation. Oren Ziv, a journalist from the reputable Israeli news site +972 Magazine, said that during the visit, journalists on-site could freely and privately talk to hundreds of soldiers, but no one mentioned decapitated children to him. Another French journalist who was there, Samuel Forey, wrote: "No one told me about decapitations, let alone decapitated children, and certainly not 40 decapitated children" (a number that often circulated in those who reported the news). Even the spokesperson of the Israeli army said he couldn't confirm the news, although he mentioned being "aware of the heinous acts Hamas is capable of."

Among the newspapers that reported the news without due caution is The Independent, which received particular criticism because on Wednesday morning, it had a highly contradictory headline on its front page: first, it mentioned women and children decapitated, then it said that the bodies were hidden, and therefore, "it is impossible to verify it."

Still lots of uncertainties. Fact-checking in French here (most sources are from military and can't be verified, some journos who visited the place can't conform anything), and some tweets were deleted too so not easy to get to the truth (yet?)

 

[SmokyPeat]

My understanding is that 40+ babies and young children were murdered by Hamas militants at Kfar Aza, and some beheaded. The beheadings are absolutely gruesome, but the murders are really the tragedy.

 

[navguy12]

Gaza’s shock attack has terrified Israelis. It should also unveil the context

The dread Israelis are feeling, myself included, has been the daily experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long.

www.972mag.com

The article is written by an Israeli:

"Contrary to what many Israelis are saying, and while the army was clearly caught completely off guard by this invasion, this is not a “unilateral” or “unprovoked” attack. The dread Israelis are feeling right now, myself included, is a sliver of what Palestinians have been feeling on a daily basis under the decades-long military regime in the West Bank, and under the siege and repeated assaults on Gaza. "

It's not an excuse for atrocities, but don't be surprised when someone boils the water and then wonders why the kettle starts to boil and whistle.

Some factors for the attacks:

1) The myth of safety in classifying Palestinians as irrelevant: "For years, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been making the case that peace can be achieved without talking to Palestinians or making any concessions."

2) "The Israeli army is routinely raiding into Palestinian cities and refugee camps."

3) "The far-right government is giving settlers an entirely free hand to set up new illegal outposts and launch pogroms on Palestinian towns and villages, with soldiers accompanying the settlers and killing or maiming Palestinians trying to defend their homes.

4) "Amid the high holidays, Jewish extremists are challenging the “status quo” around the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, backed by politicians who share their ideology."

5) "In Gaza, meanwhile, the ongoing siege is continuously destroying the lives of over two million Palestinians, many of whom are living in extreme poverty, with little access to clean water and about four hours of electricity a day. This siege has no official endgame; even an Israeli State Comptroller report found that the government has never discussed long-term solutions to ending the blockade, nor seriously considered any alternatives to recurring rounds of war and death. It is literally the only option this government, and its predecessors, have on the table."


Current non-solution:

"The only answers that consecutive Israeli governments have offered to the problem of Palestinian attacks from Gaza have been in the form of band aids: if they come from the ground, we will build a wall; if they come through tunnels, we will build an underground barrier; if they fire rockets, we’ll set up interceptors; if they are killing some of ours, we will kill many more of them. And so it goes on and on."

"there is no military solution to Israel’s problem with Gaza, nor to the resistance that naturally emerges as a response to violent apartheid."

The solution:

"As I write these words, I am sitting at home in Tel Aviv, trying to figure out how to protect my family in a house with no shelter or safe room, following with growing panic the reports and rumors of horrible events taking place in the Israeli towns near Gaza which are under attack. I see people, some of them my friends, calling on social media to attack Gaza more fiercely than ever before. Some Israelis are saying that now is the time to eradicate Gaza entirely — essentially calling for genocide. Through all the explosions, the dread and the bloodshed, speaking about peaceful solutions seems like madness to them.

Yet I remember that everything that I am feeling now, which every Israeli must be sharing, has been the life experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long. The only solution, as it has always been, is to bring an end of apartheid, occupation, and siege, and promote a future based on justice and equality for all of us. It is not in spite of the horror that we have to change course — it is exactly because of it."

This opinion piece in todays Guardian kind of mirrors some of the points discussed above:

The double standard with Israel and Palestine leaves us in moral darkness | Moustafa Bayoumi

Biden and Zelenskiy support a war they say was ‘unprovoked’ but a defenseless population will pay for media misinformation

www.theguardian.com