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Israel/Hamas conflict

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As a second point I forgot to add. If the funds haven't been released to Iran yet, they should stop the transfer immediately.


I am sure Netanyahu might have poked a bit. At the same time, in general the IDF has been very surgical to minimize killing civilians. The indiscriminate slaughter and of Israeli citizens is where they lost any empathy from me.

I won't claim to be an expert on Israeli/Palestinian affairs. I was sort of on the fence between side I felt had a better position for me to support them. I have Israeli and Palestinian friends. I had listened to them both. I ended up going to Israel and the Middle East in as well multiple times. I ended up spending some time there in both the Israeli-controlled areas as well as the Palestinian-controlled areas. Maybe not a long time but about 6 weeks in total.

While I walked through the same checkpoints the Palestinians would cross over between the Palestinian and Israeli-controlled areas. The crudeness which I saw the Israelis manning the checkpoint by the Palestinians just blew me away. The Israelis I saw treated everyone with respect crossing through. The Palestinians would curse, spit at the Israelis, act belligerent and generally be uncooperative like nothing I've seen at a border crossing checkpoint. Once inside I was shocked at how often they tried to take advantage of me and my friends in some way or another. For example wanting to charge me $100 for a 5 mile taxi ride. They would try and cheat me at stores. About the only place I was treated normally, or even approaching "well" was at an international hotel.

By contrast, I was treated well almost everywhere I went in Israel. This wasn't because I was an American. I was as incognito with my national identity everywhere I went. At the time I had Russian flags on my backpack and Russian stickers on my suitcase. Easy to do as I speak, read and write Russian fluently.

I had long ago learned that nobody generally messes with Russians when they are traveling except for a few countries. So if anything, for the Palestinians, I would have been coming from a country that was more sympathetic to their plight. So if this was how they treated their "friends", it showed me a lot about their mindset. This was pretty much true everywhere I went in the Palestinian-controlled areas. Pretty much everywhere I went in the Middle East I traveled as a "Russian" until I had to produce my passport for travel or check-in. I can only imagine how they would have treated me in Palestinian areas if they had known I was an American. Even traveling with my Russian-speaking (and Arabic-speaking) Muslim girlfriend, they tried to cheat us at almost every turn. The verbal abuse, cat-calling, and disrespect she dealt with was pretty bad as well. She never let on that she was Muslim. I asked why not; she said it would just be worse... They even wanted to charge us $200 to go into the Al Aqsa Mosque.

I never saw a Palestinian treated poorly by Israelis. I did see a lot in the opposite direction. Suffice to say, after my last trip, I had a pretty good idea of which side I was more willing to support. I am not going to say I saw all the behind scenes conflict, but I definitely had enough experience with how I saw Palestinians treat others to have a solid opinion about that. My girlfriend at the time came away with a very negative opinion as well. She was strongly in favor of Palestinians prior and in about 3 trips there, they were able to lose her empathy.
My experience was the opposite. I've lived for a few months in West Bank, my girlfriend at the time worked in Gaza strip for UN.
As much as, an Italian, I find myself "culturally" more comfortable in Israel (Tel Aviv, Jerusalem), I'd be radicalized in a month if I lived as the Palestinians. (The fact that Israel is more culturally "western", also, speaks volume about history: they are all "immigrants", by definition). I remember that going to Hebron was a real eye-opener for me. And I never went to Gaza, as it is a prison and almost nobody can enter and exit.

The fact that they are bitter, or I personally don't like large traits of the Arab culture (especially the more misogynistic ones) is IMHO secondary to the reality of the situation: as much as I dislike Hamas and what they bring to the table, Palestinians by and large are second or third class citizens, they are the oppressed ones. They suffer most casualties, even amongst children, by settlers and IDF violence.
I'm not saying I'm justifiying the horrible news we are seeing, but I've long taken the red pill about media portraits of the conflict.
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For a nuanced view of the tensions between Israel and the Palestinians, I listened to the quite recent Lex Fridman interviews on this topic. (2-3 months ago)

#389: Benjanmin Netanyahu, the well spoken prime minister of Israel, which would have you believe Israel is one of the greatest democracies out there.
#391: Mohammed El-Kurd, a Palestinian writer and poet that I was not aware of before Lex's interview. He points to structural human rights violations against Palestinians in the past decennia and contradicts most of the statements of Netanyahu.

For people not well versed in the Gaza conflict, like me for example, it was an eyeopener when I heard these interviews over the summer. The current escalation of the conflict was - unfortunately - an "accident waiting to happen" for a while.

I have no insight regarding the involvment of Russia in this hornets nest, but the money trail should indeed be followed to look for answers.

I hope the conflict de-escalates quickly and stability in the region is gained soon, on behalf of the civilians getting dragged into this.
 
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Where these threads live is perhaps of interest to moderators. But as a contributor, I couldn't care less. The purpose of these threads on war stuff is to keep such content out of investor discussions.

So move it around if it makes you happy. I can't imagine anybody will care much.

I'm fine with this subject being discussed here (just like the Russia-Ukraine conflict).

But let's try to keep US party politics out of it, as those discussions have a nasty tendency to escalate.
 
Markets opened and the price of crude just shot up today:


Quote:

"One reason oil prices had softened in recent days was growing speculation that Saudi Arabia, the United States and Israel were closing in on a political deal that could lead to an eventual Saudi recognition of Israel. There were hopes that Saudi Arabia might increase oil output to cut gasoline prices to help the Biden administration sell any deal to the U.S. Congress."
 
Markets opened and the price of crude just shot up today:


Quote:

"One reason oil prices had softened in recent days was growing speculation that Saudi Arabia, the United States and Israel were closing in on a political deal that could lead to an eventual Saudi recognition of Israel. There were hopes that Saudi Arabia might increase oil output to cut gasoline prices to help the Biden administration sell any deal to the U.S. Congress."
Hamas, Russia, Saudis, Exxon. They know how to make a profit.
 
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Conjecture. Show any proof at all. Besides something coming out of Israel.
There are enough RW talking heads out there already.

Much of the Republican criticism focused on a complex deal announced by the Biden administration in September to release five US citizens detained in Iran. As part of the deal, roughly $6 billion in frozen Iranian assets that were being held in South Korea were transferred to an account in Doha, Qatar.


WATERLOO, Iowa: Former President Donald Trump and other GOP contenders tried to lay blame on the Biden administration after Hamas militants launched the deadliest attack on Israel in decades, citing a $6 billion transfer to Iran.

The $6 billion figure is not US taxpayer money, senior Biden administration officials stressed at the time of the deal, but rather payments made by South Korea to Iran to buy oil in recent years. The funds had been stuck in South Korea due to US sanctions. That money is now held in a restricted account in Doha, and is meant to be used for solely humanitarian purposes — such as food and medicine for Iranians — and handled by what the administration described as vetted non-Iranian vendors.

Brian Nelson, the undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence at Treasury, also stressed that “these restricted funds cannot go to Iran” and that “any suggestion to the contrary is false and misleading.”
Adrienne Watson, a spokeswoman for the White House National Security Council, said she could not directly address Republican criticism due to federal restrictions.
“But I can clarify the facts: Not a single cent from these funds has been spent, and when it is spent, it can only be spent on things like food and medicine for the Iranian people,” she said Saturday in a statement. “These funds have absolutely nothing to do with the horrific attacks today and this is not the time to spread disinformation.” BBC News
See my reply here. Basically if you know the money is coming down the pipeline, and if you've steamrolled the US before, then spend away. Not to mention, I am sure the money given for "humanitarian" aid was only spent for that purpose. /sarcasm

 
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The US has given the most military aid to Israel.

The Gaza is too small. Just as big as the American city of Detroit. It has been under blockade by sea, air, and land. In theory, that means there's no way weapons could slip by the Israeli might.

However, this attack was not a surprise. The Israel Intelligence was informed:


Just because the Israelis are mighty and able to bully the Palestinians, that doesn't mean it's building security. It's the opposite: It's cooking up a pressure bomb that finally explodes.

Shooting and killing Palestinian first responders only builds up the revenge-killing pressure that would someday explode.


The Israeli sniper that killed the Palestinian American reporter may think there would be no consequences, but it has destabilized the area.


There's very little attention when the Israelis kill the Palestinians. However, don't act innocently and surprised when it's the other way around. It's the endless circle of revenge killings.

What we can learn from this lesson is that endless violent revenge will continue from both sides unless the US is willing to help facilitate a peace treaty that respects both sides (the indigenous Palestine people and the Israelis).

Israel is too strong and mighty to accept that the endless revenge killing is applicable in their case.

It's time for peace negotiation. The Europeans got a peace treaty to live peacefully with the indigenous people in South Africa. There's no legitimate reason that Israel cannot do the same.
 
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is theclear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The primeminister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

Netanyahu will certainly try to evade his responsibility and cast the blame on the heads of the army, Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet security service who, like their predecessors on the eve of the Yom Kippur War, saw a low probability of war with their preparations for a Hamas attack proving flawed.
 
Always helpful to also put this in the context of Yasser Arafat repeatedly saying no. Some of you might have been around to remember rejection of the land-for-peace offer made by Ehud Barak at Camp David in the summer of 2000. It wasn't the only offer.

I felt pretty strongly at the time that Yasser was mostly looking out for himself and that he wanted Israel destroyed more than anything.

If all the other Arab countries are so fond and supportive of the Palestinians, why don't they carve out a chunk of their land and give it to them? Why is it Israel is the only country that needs to make any sacrifices if they support the Palestinians so much?

Given how corrupt Hamas is, will they govern any better if they have their own country? Will they ever stop attacking Israel? Iran will continue to be behind the scenes stirring up crap no matter how this turns out.

How many Arabic countries have Jewish people in their legislature (or equivalent)? Israel has had Arabic members in the Knesset since the first elections in 1949. Currently, there are 10 Arab members out of 120 in the Knesset. Would the Palestinians ever let allow Jewish people to be part of their government?
 
...If all the other Arab countries are so fond and supportive of the Palestinians, why don't they carve out a chunk of their land and give it to them? Why is it Israel is the only country that needs to make any sacrifices if they support the Palestinians so much?...

Most people living in Gaza and West Bank don't want to leave the land that their ancestors have lived for many generations.

Out of 12.7 million worldwide, there are 6 million living in other Arab countries.

More importantly, how Israel can achieve security?

By having the strongest military in the region? Having the most secured border fence with most advanced sensors?

I suggest a negotiation for peace.

The problem is Israel assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabi in 1995 who was perceived as soft on the Palestinians.
 
I am sure most people want peace. There have been many negotiation attempts throughout my lifetime and I've seen almost everyone rejected by the Palestinians. Israel offered a land for peace deal and Arafat turned it down. He not only turned it down, he didn't even offer an alternative. Which was part of a pattern. At this point, I feel the Palestinians blew their chances and are their own worst enemy.


Let's not forget who we are dealing with. Never forget the Munich Massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games. Eight armed members of the Palestinian group Black September breached the Olympic compound and killed Israeli athletes.

I saw brainwashing like this in Russia against the west, not to this extent but definitely a lot of political propaganda targeting the youth. Watch the video for context.

 
I am sure most people want peace. There have been many negotiation attempts throughout my lifetime and I've seen almost everyone rejected by the Palestinians. Israel offered a land for peace deal and Arafat turned it down. He not only turned it down, he didn't even offer an alternative. Which was part of a pattern. At this point, I feel the Palestinians blew their chances and are their own worst enemy.


Let's not forget who we are dealing with. Never forget the Munich Massacre at the 1972 Olympic Games. Eight armed members of the Palestinian group Black September breached the Olympic compound and killed Israeli athletes.

I saw brainwashing like this in Russia against the west, not to this extent but definitely a lot of political propaganda targeting the youth. Watch the video for context.


Offer for land? It's more like a practice of "Israeli settlements" and the Palestinians will be wiped off the map pretty soon.

Maps_1897-Present.jpg


It's doubtful that even when the Palestinians are wiped off the map, the cycle of revenge killings will ever stop if there's no negotiation for peace.
 
If you need further evidence of the barbarity of Hamas, watch this clip. Apparently, they were slaughtering babies and some by beheading. If the IDF kills non-combatants, it is typically collateral damage. I am pretty sure this wasn't collateral damage. Beheading someone is a pretty emotional act.

As far as I understand that news hasn't been verified, I've read reports on X it was launched by i24 News, which Haaretz has said in the past to spread disinformation.

For the rest, it's a tragedy when children are victims. Everybody agrees.
This is also why people condemns IDF when it kills them: these are the child fatalities in Palestine in the last 20 years. Please count them.
 
I would imagine, that after this attack, Israel would totally cut off food, fuel, electricity and communications from Gaza. Would tell all the residents to leave, perhaps to Egypt or any other Country that would welcome these people.
Then leave it to decay for a while and then purify it and occupy it as part of Israel.
Nothing else would make sense. Like in Ukraine. Giving Russia a cease fire would only allow Russia to rearm, re supply and plan their next attacks.

Of course the debates will continue as to who is at fault, and why it happened, but reality indicates that continued attacks like this from an neighboring region cannot be tolerated.
 

The article is written by an Israeli:

"Contrary to what many Israelis are saying, and while the army was clearly caught completely off guard by this invasion, this is not a “unilateral” or “unprovoked” attack. The dread Israelis are feeling right now, myself included, is a sliver of what Palestinians have been feeling on a daily basis under the decades-long military regime in the West Bank, and under the siege and repeated assaults on Gaza. "

It's not an excuse for atrocities, but don't be surprised when someone boils the water and then wonders why the kettle starts to boil and whistle.

Some factors for the attacks:

1) The myth of safety in classifying Palestinians as irrelevant: "For years, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been making the case that peace can be achieved without talking to Palestinians or making any concessions."

2) "The Israeli army is routinely raiding into Palestinian cities and refugee camps."

3) "The far-right government is giving settlers an entirely free hand to set up new illegal outposts and launch pogroms on Palestinian towns and villages, with soldiers accompanying the settlers and killing or maiming Palestinians trying to defend their homes.

4) "Amid the high holidays, Jewish extremists are challenging the “status quo” around the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, backed by politicians who share their ideology."

5) "In Gaza, meanwhile, the ongoing siege is continuously destroying the lives of over two million Palestinians, many of whom are living in extreme poverty, with little access to clean water and about four hours of electricity a day. This siege has no official endgame; even an Israeli State Comptroller report found that the government has never discussed long-term solutions to ending the blockade, nor seriously considered any alternatives to recurring rounds of war and death. It is literally the only option this government, and its predecessors, have on the table."


Current non-solution:

"The only answers that consecutive Israeli governments have offered to the problem of Palestinian attacks from Gaza have been in the form of band aids: if they come from the ground, we will build a wall; if they come through tunnels, we will build an underground barrier; if they fire rockets, we’ll set up interceptors; if they are killing some of ours, we will kill many more of them. And so it goes on and on."

"there is no military solution to Israel’s problem with Gaza, nor to the resistance that naturally emerges as a response to violent apartheid."

The solution:

"As I write these words, I am sitting at home in Tel Aviv, trying to figure out how to protect my family in a house with no shelter or safe room, following with growing panic the reports and rumors of horrible events taking place in the Israeli towns near Gaza which are under attack. I see people, some of them my friends, calling on social media to attack Gaza more fiercely than ever before. Some Israelis are saying that now is the time to eradicate Gaza entirely — essentially calling for genocide. Through all the explosions, the dread and the bloodshed, speaking about peaceful solutions seems like madness to them.

Yet I remember that everything that I am feeling now, which every Israeli must be sharing, has been the life experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long. The only solution, as it has always been, is to bring an end of apartheid, occupation, and siege, and promote a future based on justice and equality for all of us. It is not in spite of the horror that we have to change course — it is exactly because of it."
 
As far as I understand that news hasn't been verified, I've read reports on X it was launched by i24 News, which Haaretz has said in the past to spread disinformation.

For the rest, it's a tragedy when children are victims. Everybody agrees.
This is also why people condemns IDF when it kills them: these are the child fatalities in Palestine in the last 20 years. Please count them.
It has been verified by several sources now. Besides, we already had equally disturbing confirmed reports of Hamas video taping the killing of elderly and sending videos to family members or social media.

Hamas is worse than ISIS. There is no moral or legal equivalence. These babies and civilians were purposefully targeted. The level of Hamas' barbarity is so alien and worse than feral animals.

Hamas says over and over again including their founding Charter that they will never recognize Israel's right to exist and even endeavor to kill Jews all over the world.
 
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