It's going to take the village to save our future;

[beeeerock]

Electricity isn't like internet packets; it can't be routed.

The strongest statement anyone can make about the source of their grid power is this: if you've paid for 100% renewable power, then for every kWh you use, there is positive proof that a renewable kWh was generated to offset that use.

Exactly. While the electricity produced in my province is supposed to be about 85% green (hydro), upping my electricity consumption doesn't come without a green cost and it's more likely to be higher than the 15% difference one would assume... because the huge grid all contributes and it's not unreasonable to think that the extra kilowatt-hour I consume might come from a coal-fired plant somewhere. Either because I used it myself or because someone outside my province was deprived that energy being provided by one of our dams and the coal plant had to spool up to make up the difference.

If you think in terms of the whole grid, the green percentage would average out to be different to what BC would be alone... if electrically isolated from the rest of the world.

With that in mind, I've once again begun the process (delayed several times over the last 4 or 5 years!) to get solar on my roof, with a connection back to the grid. If I'm producing electricity without carbon-consequences, then I can perhaps justify driving further in the Tesla (coming soon), or even the ICE fun cars I have in the stable. Whether you plant trees or add solar panels, it's all about carbon-offsetting.

 

[jerry33]

The strongest statement anyone can make about the source of their grid power is this: if you've paid for 100% renewable power, then for every kWh you use, there is positive proof that a renewable kWh was generated to offset that use.

Right. Mostly what you are doing is voting with your dollars that you want a certain kind of energy. Companies are good at being responsive to dollar votes. So even if you think it's somewhat disingenuous because the wind power can be put into the grid anytime within a six month period (at least that's what my contract says), you're still saying that this is what you want and using your dollars to back it up.

 

[nwdiver]

If wind needs to be about the money then redeploying to a better location, usually with a taller tower, can be done at half price or better.

The complimentary nature of wind visa vie solar is key. If you have one you should at least consider installing the other. And if you have wind, why suffer it with no payback? "The Three Day Blow": Ernest Hemingway 1925.
--

I wasn't arguing against the merits of larger commercial wind farms.... those work great and produce cost-effective power. It's the small <100kW turbines that are over twice the price of solar depending on location. If ROI isn't a concern then it's not too bad but I have a hard time selling a PV system with a 5 year payback... 10 years would be a non-starter.

It's amazing how quickly solar skepticism melts away when you explain how a system costing <$7k (after FTC) can save ~$1500/yr. The common denominator for people is $$$.... sad but true. A wind turbine costing >$15k saving ~$1000/yr is a MUCH harder sell.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Great going, @nwdiver.

Would like to get your opinion as well as @Robert.Boston's on CloudSolar:

Startup Gives New Incentive To Use Solar Energy | Here Now

Sounds like a great idea for folks to get involved if they can't go solar themselves.

Having had rooftop solar at our previous place (an early SolarCity install from 2007), we've hesitated to install it at our current place mainly because of our very low power consumption patterns. Both EVs charge at work and there's no one home during the day. No A/C either. And, Pacific Gouge & Extort makes solar adopters pick a ToU plan that can impose an undue burden on usage patterns.

Would be great if I can get involved via CloudSolar. Not a great RoI at 3x over 25 years but, it seems to be a good deed and asset all the same.

 

[nwdiver]

Would like to get your opinion as well as @Robert.Boston's on CloudSolar:

Startup Gives New Incentive To Use Solar Energy | Here Now

Sounds like a great idea for folks to get involved if they can't go solar themselves.

I really like the idea of community solar; There are obviously A LOT of people that for one reason or another simply can't accommodate PV where they live. It holds a lot of promise but it's success or failure is at the mercy of utility support even more so than residential solar.

But; Education is crucial. People aren't going to seriously consider something they see as an 'environmental accessory'. The level of ignorance surrounding solar PV is staggering. I work with a lot of highly educated technical people yet even among my co-workers there persists many false beliefs. 'You need acres of solar to power a house'; 'What good is an 8kW system if I use 1000kWh/mo'; 'Solar Panels only last 10 years' and these are people in the top ~20% of the general population in terms of science education. Most people don't understand the difference of kW vs kWh let alone how many kWh an 8kW PV system produces.

This is the key; do your part to help solar continue to spread virally, be the next vector. Solar is contagious because knowledge is contagious.

 

[wycolo]

I read somewhere that thick grass, prairie or lawn, can actually produce more O2 than a tree. And that sugar cane can out produce any other plant energy-wise. FWIW.
--

 

[Robert.Boston]

I really like the idea of community solar; There are obviously A LOT of people that for one reason or another simply can't accommodate PV where they live. It holds a lot of promise but it's success or failure is at the mercy of utility support even more so than residential solar.

Ditto. As I noted up-thread, I'm working on a parallel (not-for-profit) effort here in Portland, Maine. More information about community solar:
The Solar Association's community solar page: Shared Renewables/Community Solar | SEIA
NREL's handbook on community solar: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49930.pdf
Interstate Renewable Energy Council: IREC Publications on Regulatory Reform, Workforce Education, Market Trends and Analysis | Interstate Renewable Energy Council

To make community solar work financially, it is essential that state laws recognize it. Maine has good laws, but for one number (and there's a bill in the legislature to correct that). Under Maine law:

• Community solar output is net metered against the usage of owners, pro rata to their ownership shares
• Each owner separately contracts for his construction share (although the construction price is based on the full-scale array), allowing each owner to access any federal and state tax incentives directly
• All meters must be in the same utility's service territory
• A share may change which meter it is tagged to, allowing owners to move (within the utility's area) or sell their shares (to someone within the utility's area)
• Facilities are capped at 660 kW (which is big, but not "commercial")
• Only 10 members per facility (which is a problem, should be much higher)

The net metering provision is what is key, though. Without the net metering, the solar array is paid only what the distribution tariff allows for injections or, if the array is sufficiently large, the transmission tariff. Only 10 states (per SEIA) recognize community solar/shared renewables, so you may have some work to do at your state house before you can round up your neighbors into a program. The IREC link above has some very good documents, written by regulatory lawyers, that provide model rules, model contract forms, etc.

 

[nwdiver]

10MWh May; If I can get the 15kW project on-line this month I should be able to break 10MWh in one month for the first time. I'll be posting some photos soon.

Humble beginnings; I found this photo of my first array using laminates I bought for $1/w 4 years ago.

 

[nwdiver]

Stopped by to snap a photo of the 7.1kW system I finished last week. Upfront cost was <$10k... ~$7k after FTC. System is producing 50KWh/day; Annual yield should be >12MWh. There are 8 more panels on the back of the house not visible in this photo.

 

[CHG-ON]

Unfortunately, I live in the middle of a Redwood forest. So I do not get enough sun to be able to use solar. I expect that I will sell and move in the next two years with the goal of getting more sun so that I can go completely solar.

But I feel compelled to say something not so pleasant. I fear that humans have gone too far and that there may now well be no way back. Yes, we first worlders in the EU and USA can do all of what we are doing. And I am working very hard at it...I use only 48 gal of water per day for my house and yard (I got a gold star from my water company :smile And I have cut my electricity use, including my new Tesla, by 30%. But the developing world is essentially negating (and even more) all of what we are doing. I DO NOT blame them. The US did the same damn thing in the 1800's. As did the UK.

I am a Yankee from Connecticut, USA. I was raised as, and have always been, one who looks at life and resources as scarce and was taught to save/recycle everything. Much to the annoyance of my friends, actually. But what I see is a population that simply wants to consume every possible thing they can to fill some sort of void. I have been very guilty of such too. I have worked hard to move beyond that. Still work to do.

I have no children. So I will not leave a living legacy. But just today, my sister had her first grandchild. The first in our family's generation. Boy, has it made me think.

And that is why I own an electric car. One day it will be completely solar powered.

Thanks for reading. It has been a profound day.

 

[nwdiver]

But I feel compelled to say something not so pleasant. I fear that humans have gone too far and that there may now well be no way back. Yes, we first worlders in the EU and USA can do all of what we are doing. And I am working very hard at it...I use only 48 gal of water per day for my house and yard (I got a gold star from my water company :smile And I have cut my electricity use, including my new Tesla, by 30%. But the developing world is essentially negating (and even more) all of what we are doing. I DO NOT blame them. The US did the same damn thing in the 1800's. As did the UK did.

Congratulations on the addition to your family; I agree that the clock is ticking, the hour is late and our condition dire but there is still time. Solar represents an effectively inexhaustible source of energy. We will encounter many other non-energy resource barriers before we out strip Earths ability to provide us with the materials necessary to meet our energy needs with solar. The critical ingredients in the typical panel are Silicon and Aluminum... literally the most common elements on the surface of the planet which are a solid at room temperature. Conveniently recyclable too.

We each do what we can... I help friends install solar since I've run out of real-estate at my home... maybe we need a PV bootcamp at the next Tesla connect :wink:

Using ~the same panels for my next project that WK057 is using for his... I think I'm done with modules <300w... it's about the same effort racking a 250w panel and a 435w panel.

I'm aiming to go on-line ~May 1st but if history is any indication it will probably be closer to June 1.... 15kW Ground mount using the new Schletter 2x6 kits. 36 panels total tied to an 11kW inverter. Upfront cost ~$19k.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Cautiously optimistic here--the mayor of Portland has given a thumbs-up for using a big parcel of city-owned land (a closed landfill) for our community solar project. Technical and legal review is pending, but we could site a LOT of solar here (6–10 MW), all owned by Portland residents and businesses and net metered against our bills. If fully built out, this would add about 10 percentage points to the renewable mix here in Portland.

 

[beeeerock]

But I feel compelled to say something not so pleasant. I fear that humans have gone too far and that there may now well be no way back. Yes, we first worlders in the EU and USA can do all of what we are doing. And I am working very hard at it...I use only 48 gal of water per day for my house and yard (I got a gold star from my water company :smile And I have cut my electricity use, including my new Tesla, by 30%. But the developing world is essentially negating (and even more) all of what we are doing. I DO NOT blame them. The US did the same damn thing in the 1800's. As did the UK did.

First, congratulations on the new arrival!

I probably think very much as you do. When I see tourists trundling down the road in huge RV's with a boat or a pair of quads on a trailer behind, I feel deep despair. They don't get it, that much is clear.

In my opinion, one of the most important changes will be accepting a new economic model that is compatible with sustainability, rather than the traditional requirement to grow, to sell more, find more customers... Unless the resources available, and even the planet itself, are able to grow and keep ahead - the status quo simply can't work indefinitely.

- - - Updated - - -

Stopped by to snap a photo of the 7.1kW system I finished last week. Upfront cost was <$10k... ~$7k after FTC. System is producing 50KWh/day; Annual yield should be >12MWh. There are 8 more panels on the back of the house not visible in this photo.

Your bill of materials doesn't appear to include labour. In the civil work I'm involved with, it's generally safe to double materials to get an idea of the installed price (if water main costs $100 to buy per meter, $200 to supply and install that meter is probably reasonable). What do you think the multiplier should reasonably be for solar installations done through a contractor?

- - - Updated - - -

Cautiously optimistic here--the mayor of Portland has given a thumbs-up for using a big parcel of city-owned land (a closed landfill) for our community solar project. Technical and legal review is pending, but we could site a LOT of solar here (6–10 MW), all owned by Portland residents and businesses and net metered against our bills. If fully built out, this would add about 10 percentage points to the renewable mix here in Portland.

That's a great use for a landfill... add some gas collection and you'd have another energy source - LOL! In reality, a landfill is pretty much useless for anything after closure - any buildings would be on deep piles and control of gas would be very complicated. Hopefully it'll all come together for you.

 

[nwdiver]

Your bill of materials doesn't appear to include labour. In the civil work I'm involved with, it's generally safe to double materials to get an idea of the installed price (if water main costs $100 to buy per meter, $200 to supply and install that meter is probably reasonable). What do you think the multiplier should reasonably be for solar installations done through a contractor?

~$0.50 - $1.50/w; But... if you act as your own General Contractor....probably ~$0.25/w.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

I was going to post this in "Solar Happenings", but I think this thread is more appropriate as it resonates along the lines of the original post.

PosiGen Brings Solar to the Working Class With a Unique Twist on a Lease

By pairing solar with energy efficiency, CEO says PosiGen can save customers 80% more than a typical PPA.

These guys combine a uniform 6kW product with energy efficiency upgrades and a simple 10 year lease to save middle and low-income families tons of cash. The single best business model I've seen yet and one that is truly embodies the spirit of this thread.

An energy company that also sells efficiency.....that's a very next level concept for this country and a nice thing to see. They seem to be doing quite well, as you would imagine.

 

[Zaxxon]

Note to self: fly nwdiver out when I'm looking to put solar on my next home.

 

[nwdiver]

These guys combine a uniform 6kW product with energy efficiency upgrades and a simple 10 year lease to save middle and low-income families tons of cash. The single best business model I've seen yet and one that is truly embodies the spirit of this thread.

An energy company that also sells efficiency.....that's a very next level concept for this country and a nice thing to see. They seem to be doing quite well, as you would imagine.

LOVE IT! I've always thought that doing a solar install without an energy assessment bordered on professional negligence. When I was toying with the idea of forming a company my business model was going to be offering free energy assessments subsidized by solar installs. Use the energy assessment as an opportunity to pitch solar.

Contingent on the homeowners... there's a chance I'll be starting two 10kW installs next door to each other this fall... if there's anyone near the Midland / Odessa area of Texas interested in gaining some Solar PV confidence/experience please message me.

 

[CHG-ON]

I know that I am being pessimistic, because that's how I am feeling at the moment. But I wonder if the climate now, looking at the changing weather patterns, and the extreme changes we are seeing in them, are a sign that the carbon we already have in the atmosphere is simply too much and the path has been set. Just look at the last 50 years of the arctic! It has shrunk by an alarming rate. And of course, the big corps are thrilled, because now they can sail across the north and save time and money delivering all the crap we all feel we need to buy.

CA is in what the experts are saying is either a 500 or 1,000 year drought cycle that could last for years. Years. Some of our largest reservoirs are now at 5% or lower! If the drought continues as it is, we will not survive. Our snow pack in the Sierras-the major source of water for all 35MM of us-was only 5% of normal this year. Shocking. And the east coast this year! I am 57, come from the East, and never in my life have I seen 8 (I think) blizzards come through in one year. Maybe two majors ones in one year. So the East is being washed away and the West is being blown away.

I am consoled, to some extent, that Elon has seemed to finally get a real dialog going about the true importance of this. Al Gore warned us of this years and years ago. Everybody poo-poo'd him. And now he has been shown to be correct.

Apologies for being a downer today! I'll stop...for now.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Droughts in the desert are fairly common, this is more of an overpopulation thing. How many decades have people been saying LA was going to run out of water?

 

[ecarfan]

The growing population of California has nothing to do with historically low snowfall in the Sierras. That was due to a high pressure weather feature over the state from mid December through March.