green1
Active Member
Oh they're pushing boundaries all right, boundaries of customer acceptance, boundaries of false advertising laws, boundaries of deceptive warranty legislation, boundaries of many other consumer protection laws.
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Just a Place Keeper to See if I Am Right About the Future of AP1
- Thread starter lolachampcar
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- Model S
3Victoria
Active Member
This is not about being cutting edge. Don't confuse the situation, deliberately or not.
P'shaw I say. You protestest too much, my good man.
Yeah those pesky laws, getting in the way of being cutting edge.... Who cares if you sell someone a car that claims to drive itself even if it never can, or a car that has 691 horsepower when it has 250hp less, or that claims to have 85 kWh when it only has 77 kWh. Or a car that has 670 HP when you buy it, then the company takes away 70HP of that. Oops! Cutting edge!!!
Damned laws! get out of the way!
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Well at least we agree on something! People who do nothing but hold Tesla's feet to the flame are more than welcome here regardless of whether others here agree with them or not.
I'm not so sure about that. If my theory is correct then it is the NHTSA, working "with" Tesla, that has brought about the restrictions in AP1.0. Blaming those who support Tesla, even the ones who are "over the top" about it, seems like scapegoating to me.
A lawsuit over this issue would certainly flush out the issues. I suspect that Tesla will argue it's beta, nothing was promised, etc. but in the alternative, should those arguments fail, it will argue the doctrine of frustration, and in particular supervening illegality or a variant thereof.
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green1
Active Member
And back to the government conspiracy theories... "the big bad government MADE them do it, don't blame Tesla, they just want what's best for all their customers! if it weren't for the big bad government Tesla would have delivered on all their promises!"
I don't think very many people believe your conspiracy theory.
I don't think very many people believe your conspiracy theory.
3Victoria
Active Member
Well:
They have never said it would drive itself, so that example is nil and void.
They did provide 691 HP of motors, and I don't think they ever claimed you would get that power out. But opinions can vary. I agree, they need to do much better on their wording.
Cutting-edge = bleeding-edge in many cases -- as your examples show.
Again, if you don't want cutting-edge, by a VW Diesel.
One issue would have been fine, there's way too many things now. As someone who likes technology, part of ownership process is getting to know the thing you bought and be continued to be delighted by it, even if there are minor issues, as any nerd would find. Sure there are some good things about being an electric car still. Unfortunately, as time goes by and the more I know Tesla, the issues just keep snowballing. I stopped evangelizing Tesla 1-2 months after I took delivery, and it's gotten worse since then. I'll correct someone when they say something dumb about EV's, but other than that it's hard for me to say anything with confidence. I also have to remind people the car doesn't drive itself and is not going to be able to pick me up. No, I actually have to be sober to drive home.
No, my car will NEVER drive itself.
Well:
They have never said it would drive itself, so that example is nil and void.
They did provide 691 HP of motors, and I don't think they ever claimed you would get that power out. But opinions can vary. I agree, they need to do much better on their wording.
Cutting-edge = bleeding-edge in many cases -- as your examples show.
Again, if you don't want cutting-edge, by a VW Diesel.
I'm sure we can push 1000HP through the motors for 100ms. They should have called in 1000 HP car instead.
What a steaming pile...
3Victoria
Active Member
Thanks for that term. I agree that I think this is what is happening. More bleeding due to being cutting edge. C'est la vie.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I hate to go in circles but I can't leave this nonsense unchallenged. Right from the horse's mouth, people. You can be the judge:
Elon Musk – Tesla CEO
We have done most of these changes with NHTSA and I don’t want to speak for them but they appear to be pretty happy with the changes and the reactions from them is quite positive.
Transcript: Elon Musk’s press conference about Tesla Autopilot under v8.0 update [Part 6]
But Elon Musk is also part of the conspiracy right? And the NHTSA since they don't take issue with this statement? It's all a BIG CONSPIRACY!
Give it a rest. You are looking really foolish calling me a conspiracy theorist. Please challenge me on an intellectual level. I know you have it in you to do so. You crafted a great post about Tesla's broken promises. You can do better than the Alex Jones' level of argument.
green1
Active Member
No, they never said it would drive itself, but they DID say it would do many other things that it doesn't do. See my previous post Just a Place Keeper to See if I Am Right About the Future of AP1 for a partial list.Well:
They have never said it would drive itself, so that example is nil and void.
They did provide 691 HP of motors, and I don't think they ever claimed you would get that power out. But opinions can vary. I agree, they need to do much better on their wording.
Cutting-edge = bleeding-edge in many cases -- as your examples show.
Again, if you don't want cutting-edge, by a VW Diesel.
As for the horsepower. They never specified that you couldn't get the horsepower out, and they did specify the number. At best it is EXTREMELY misleading and unethical to advertise that, at worst it's actually illegal false advertising.
3Victoria
Active Member
How is this Tesla's fault? They have never claimed your car would be self-driving. They are projecting the future. I you do not want the uncertainty, don't update your car.
green1
Active Member
Ok, give me an example of a past situation where the NHTSA has done, not one, but ALL of the following things. (none of which have actually ever happened in the entire history of the automobile):
- Issued an order forcing consumers to have a feature removed from their vehicles after sale
- Made that order mandatory outside of the USA
- Not published any statement at all while forcing a mandatory order
Because unless they've actually done all 3 of those, it would be ILLEGAL for Tesla to make ANY changes to the functionality of my vehicle after purchase without my express consent, AND they'd still be bound by the terms of their warranty.
Actually, I take that last line back, it would STILL be illegal for Tesla to make any changes to my car, because the NHTSA doesn't have any authority in Canada, and the government agency that does can't actually issue mandatory recalls!
Well:
They have never said it would drive itself, so that example is nil and void.
They did provide 691 HP of motors, and I don't think they ever claimed you would get that power out. But opinions can vary. I agree, they need to do much better on their wording.
Cutting-edge = bleeding-edge in many cases -- as your examples show.
Again, if you don't want cutting-edge, by a VW Diesel.
You know, I was with you there on the motor thing. I thought JB's blog post was a bunch of BS but, if you want to yell that a car has 691 hp while muttering "motor" in there somewhere and I do not happen to catch the motor part well then bad on me.
However, when you work your butt off to actually deliver something almost, at or a little more than 691 hp in that same car well then I'm going to remember correctly that you said 691 hp cause you finally got around to delivering it.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It's difficult for someone who has practiced law for over 25 years to debate what is legal with a lay person since lawyers don't talk the way you do. I have no idea what you mean by "illegal" when you state it over and over again in your post, as if you know what you're talking about when it comes to the law. First off, I don't even know if you mean civil or criminal? I doubt you mean criminal, but perhaps quasi-criminal? Not breach of the criminal code but breach of other statutes? Or perhaps you mean civil like breach of contract? Then it's breach of contract. Lawyers use those words rather than illegal since that refers more to criminal or quasi-criminal legal matters. So I hope you can see how it's difficult for me to even debate legal issues with you. But I will try, starting with your bullet points and what I can make from the rest of your argument.
What happened in the past means almost nothing when it comes to new technology. In the past, you could not update a car over the air. You must understand that? But why take it from me? Here it is from Elon Musk:
Elon Musk – Tesla CEO
The word “recall” doesn’t make sense in this context since this is an over-the-air update. “Recall” is for companies where the cars require plug in something into the car. It’s not a term that really make sense in this situation.
Transcript: Elon Musk’s press conference about Tesla Autopilot under v8.0 update [Part 6]
I've been practicing law before we had the internet and email (and even fax machines). These things changed the law immensely. Judges would roll their eyes if I tried to use snail mail law about delay dates when it comes to faxes and email. You are doing that to me now. I can also give you countless other examples.
I won't even reply to your "Canada" jurisdiction issue since I have gone over that too many times with you. Since you have mentioned the possibility of a lawsuit, why not go for a consultation with a lawyer and outline all of your concerns and see what he/she tells you? Here's a free half-hour for you in Alberta. Request a lawyer familiar with product liability law:
When you talk to each lawyer, the first half-hour of the conversation is free and is the time to discuss your legal situation and explore your options.
Lawyer Referral
Then come back here and tell us what you were told. I can't keep going in circles with you.
*All of my posts are my personal opinion only and shall not be taken as legal advice.
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3Victoria
Active Member
Yes, but only if your door is in a direct line from the parking space. Like this:
Yeah, if your parking space counts as the middle of the street, like that guy.
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