Just a Place Keeper to See if I Am Right About the Future of AP1

[3Victoria]

Why does everyone and their mother think that my car drives itself?

I deny it, my mother doesn't think your car is self-driving, she's passed on. (Its ok, don't fret, I am ok.) Part of the problem is there is so much FUD and misinformation out there that Tesla's life is made much harder trying to ward it off, and these discussions are much muddier than they need to be.

 

[Andyw2100]

I was not quoting you. There are many on this forum who go around saying that Tesla "promised" to do this or that. But Tesla did not. Making a statement of intent is not a promise, and I, for one, get tired of hearing how Tesla cheated someone this way or another. Of course, you feel that those people are correct, but I think that if there was something more than a frivolous lawsuit, someone would sue and get paid.

Since it is obvious that that crowd is not going to sue, but just wants to air their opinions in hopes of getting people to side with them, I feel it is only fair that I can state my opinion, too.

Of course you can state your position.

I think you misunderstand, though. I was talking about this post:
Just a Place Keeper to See if I Am Right About the Future of AP1

Here is a screenshot of it, if that makes it more clear:

The first two lines that you quoted in your post are, in fact, mine. But then the next four lines of type--the second two paragraphs--were your attempt at responding to me. There is nothing else in your post. To anyone skimming things, it looks like your words--the last two paragraphs--are mine, because they appear in the "Andyw2100 said:" box.

My concern, and the reason I asked you to correct it if you still could (you can't now, of course) is because I never said those things. You did.

 

[3Victoria]

My concern, and the reason I asked you to correct it if you still could (you can't now, of course) is because I never said those things. You did.

Maybe the moderator can correct it. Your comments were included in the Quote /Quote marks. I agree its confusing and inaccurate. Moderator?

 

[Canuck]

Why does everyone and their mother think that my car drives itself?

Because of the name.

Part of the problem is there is so much FUD and misinformation out there that Tesla's life is made much harder trying to ward it off, and these discussions are much muddier than they need to be.

In my view, Tesla only has itself to blame, starting right with name "autopilot".

 

[Max*]

In my view, Tesla only has itself to blame, starting right with name "autopilot".

That's a good starting point, to add to it
-Promises of on-ramp to off-ramp capabilities, with an implicit "the car does the work" [otherwise, I can do on-ramp to off-ramp on any car, that's not a selling point]
-Elon's historical re-tweets of drivers using no hands to drive, and his own comments (twitter? elsewhere?) about no hands
-etc.

 

[jmsurpri]

With regards to all the recent restrictions added to autopilot, I am somewhat confused. We are supposed to always have hands-on-wheel when Autosteer is engaged. Autosteer is steering assist. So, given that we all have our hands on the wheel and are actively driving, why should there be *any* speed limit restrictions?

So here are some guesses as to what's going on:
1. Tesla had to hand over driving data to NHTSA. They parsed through the data and found that with the current restrictions, people weren't holding the steering wheel and were still treating it as hands-free. NHTSA suggests that Tesla step up the nags/limits to force people to hold the steering wheel more.
2. NHTSA tells Tesla that Autopilot term is not appropriate and must change the name - unless they step up the nags, limits, etc.

So I somewhat agree with the OP about the future of AP1. I think the whole reason for the increase in nags and speed limit restrictions is due to the data showing that people are still driving hands free. My guess is the restrictions keep increasing until the data shows that no one takes their hands off the wheel anymore.

It seems to me that having all this real-time driving data available is a double-edged sword. It's great because it allows Tesla to fine-tune algorithms. It sucks because agencies like NHTSA can see in real-time how users abuse the capabilities. What's next? Max driving speed limits on 'dangerous' roads? License revoked if you exceed speed limit N times?

 

[AWDtsla]

Well my hand weighs about a half pound, and it's on the wheel most of the time. So that should change their data.

 

[green1]

It's difficult for someone who has practiced law for over 25 years to debate what is legal with a lay person since lawyers don't talk the way you do. I have no idea what you mean by "illegal" when you state it over and over again in your post, as if you know what you're talking about when it comes to the law. First off, I don't even know if you mean civil or criminal? I doubt you mean criminal, but perhaps quasi-criminal? Not breach of the criminal code but breach of other statutes? Or perhaps you mean civil like breach of contract? Then it's breach of contract. Lawyers use those words rather than illegal since that refers more to criminal or quasi-criminal legal matters. So I hope you can see how it's difficult for me to even debate legal issues with you. But I will try, starting with your bullet points and what I can make from the rest of your argument.

What happened in the past means almost nothing when it comes to new technology. In the past, you could not update a car over the air. You must understand that? But why take it from me? Here it is from Elon Musk:

Elon Musk – Tesla CEO
The word “recall” doesn’t make sense in this context since this is an over-the-air update. “Recall” is for companies where the cars require plug in something into the car. It’s not a term that really make sense in this situation.
Transcript: Elon Musk’s press conference about Tesla Autopilot under v8.0 update [Part 6]

I've been practicing law before we had the internet and email (and even fax machines). These things changed the law immensely. Judges would roll their eyes if I tried to use snail mail law about delay dates when it comes to faxes and email. You are doing that to me now. I can also give you countless other examples.

I won't even reply to your "Canada" jurisdiction issue since I have gone over that too many times with you. Since you have mentioned the possibility of a lawsuit, why not go for a consultation with a lawyer and outline all of your concerns and see what he/she tells you? Here's a free half-hour for you in Alberta. Request a lawyer familiar with product liability law:

When you talk to each lawyer, the first half-hour of the conversation is free and is the time to discuss your legal situation and explore your options.
Lawyer Referral

Then come back here and tell us what you were told. I can't keep going in circles with you.

*All of my posts are my personal opinion only and shall not be taken as legal advice.

Ok, I'm going back to my previous post. I'm done debating the conspiracy theorist. You think that secret meetings with secret government organizations dictate what functionality you are allowed to keep on your own personal property.

I don't believe in such ridiculous conspiracy theories, and believe that if the government comes for my AP, they're at least going to have the courtesy to tell me such, and be able to put forward a legal argument as to how it overrides every piece of consumer protection legislation that exists that says that I get to keep what was already delivered.

You believe your conspiracy theories. I'll believe the real world, and I won't debate it with you again. If you keep bringing up the conspiracy theories in new threads, I'll keep pointing out how insane they sound just in case someone is inclined to believe them, but I'm not going to debate or argue with you here any more.

 

[lolachampcar]

gotta love this one
"go for a 90D because if you drive the P100D too hard the P falls off"
thegruf

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I'd be more concerned with the steering wheel going away before the infotainment system. Either way, this isn't a good example as the infotainment system isn't disclosed as BETA. Summon and Autosteer are. They have been since the beginning. We all bought into that concept when we laid down the money, which was optional. Getting mad because feature sets are changing in software that isn't fully baked is asinine.

I believe the point of this thread is to track what AP1 will look like if/when it exits BETA.

No, no, no. The first time the "beta" label was used was when 7.0 was rolled out, AFTER I paid $2500 for the autopilot. I did not buy a system that would eternally be in beta. I paid for a system that was supposed to be fully complete "within a few months."

 

[Andyw2100]

This question is for @Canuck.

I think you have been pretty reasonable throughout this discussion. I want to ask for your thoughts on the following from both the legal standpoint, since you have the background there, and then also for your own personal opinion.

Let's assume that as you have been suggesting, much of the limiting of AP1 we have been seeing has been Tesla trying to appease the NHTSA. Let's take it a step farther, and say that in six months the NHTSA or some other governing body forces Tesla to remove all auto-steer functionality from AP1 cars.

I have no legal training, but in my mind that would not absolve Tesla of the fact that they were breaking their contracts with the owners of the cars. Those contracts included delivery of cars with the ability to drive themselves on ramp to off ramp. Am I mistaken, from a legal standpoint? My feeling is that Tesla, as the experts, should have been able to foresee any intervention from a governing body, and thus remains responsible for delivering what they sold us, or providing some sort of fair compensation.

I'm wondering what, in your opinion, the law would say about that situation, and then also what your personal opinion of it would be.

Thanks!

 

[bhzmark]

Ignorance is bliss.

Describe the specific functionality that used to exist but no longer does? What is the big loss or inconvenience?

 

[Canuck]

I'm not going to debate or argue with you here any more.

So I win!

This question is for @Canuck.

I can't possibly provide a legal opinion without a review of all relevant documents and case-law... and a hefty retainer ... but I can give you my personal opinion.

In my view, Tesla did not make it make it clear enough to owners that it was beta and features may be restricted, whether working "with" the NHTSA, or at the order or direction of the NHTSA. I'm not certain the restrictions, or failed to be delivered features, etc. are at the stage now to warrant damages but let's say for the sake of argument, as you have asked, that the NHTSA disables it completely, or places more restrictions to basically render it useless. Then in my personal view Tesla is at the very least significantly exposed to damages because it seems to me that it was reasonably foreseeable that this could happen. I'm also not certain the doctrine of frustration will be a defence.

But, as they say, there's a reason we have judges/juries and trials. And even when one judge/jury decides something one way, decisions being overturned on appeal are common. So you are not going to get a definitive answer to this question from any legal expert let alone from me on this forum.

 

[Andyw2100]

But, as they say, there's a reason we have judges/juries and trials. And even when one judge/jury decides something one way, decisions being overturned on appeal are common. So you are not going to get a definitive answer to this question from any legal expert let alone from me on this forum.

That's fine. Thank you.

I was mainly trying to determine that there was not something absolutely cut and dried that would let Tesla off the hook in a situation like that. I didn't expect that there was, but I've been wrong before (and will be wrong again.)

Thanks!

 

[Canuck]

I was mainly trying to determine that there was not something absolutely cut and dried that would let Tesla off the hook in a situation like that.

When it comes to the law, nothing is cut and dry like that. If so, there would be (heaven forbid!) no need for lawyers...

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

gotta love this one
"go for a 90D because if you drive the P100D too hard the P falls off"
thegruf

But, technically isn't it the P90D that you can drive too hard and the P will fall off?

With the P100DL the P supposedly doesn't fall off.

 

[Andyw2100]

With the P100DL the P supposedly doesn't fall off.

For now...

 

[AWDtsla]

Describe the specific functionality that used to exist but no longer does? What is the big loss or inconvenience?

"Please hold me alert" used to mean: I don't know where I'm going, please help

Now it means: "You better hold the wheel or else you're going to bed with no ice cream! nag nag nag nag!"

 

[davidc18]

I want to hear the excuse that Tesla is a "start up" again. That made me laugh out loud.

 

[bhzmark]

"Please hold me alert" used to mean: I don't know where I'm going, please help

Now it means: "You better hold the wheel or else you're going to bed with no ice cream! nag nag nag nag!"

I'm still not seeing a description of the supposed lost functionality.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my updated AP and am amused at the upset and drama people create for themselves based on some injustice they seem unable to articulate.

I know there have been various changes to the AP functionality. And humans are instinctively terrified of change of any kind. But what AP change has truly made your car experience worse off or less safe or even less convenient without an appropriate trade off for increased safety?