Karma -vs- Model S

[smorgasbord]

They convincingly blew away the Roadsters despite weighing about 2000 lbs more.

None of them beat last year's best Roadster record. And, the Roadster is a relatively lousy track car, as shown by a Leaf with upgraded suspension and tires (but stock battery/motor) doing so well, comparatively.

Heck, a Honda Civic SI beat many of the Roadsters (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html).

 

[rolosrevenge]

SCG great analysis...I really love the looks of the Karma, the interior materials and layout are MUCH better than the Model S, the exterior is to die for. There is something about the interior materials in the ECO-CHIC that is very attractive to me. Every time I sit in an Eco-Chic model the interior feels comfortable and familiar. The padding and materials are beyond a doubt some of the finest in ANY car (and they are all recycled and use no animal products). Unbelievable feat of interior design and execution! I like the 2+2 seating arrangement in the Karma, I think it looks cleaner than the typical rear bench.

I am not so sure why everyone is hung up on the amount of cargo capacity in the Model S. Maybe Costco runs? I have no idea what people could possibly be carrying everyday to need a bunch of cargo room? I guess its great to have "just in case."

I find it funny that some of the comments here love to play up the sporty nature of the Model S, it weighs 4600 lbs! Regardless of where the center of gravity is, it still feels heavy. The Karma & Model S are not sports cars, they may have some characteristics that may emulate some of the characteristics and features of a sports car, but at the end of the day they, both are large heavy vehicles (akin to using a swiss army knife to filet a fish). You need the right tool for the job , and neither are the right tools if you are talking about a "sporty car." There is no way a 4600lb car can be considered sporty, either these people who claim the Model S handles like a sports car have never driven a legitimate sports car or they "think" that is the way a sports car should handle. This is the same with the Roadster (it is a great commuter car, but it is not a "great" sports car it is much too heavy (also weight in the wrong place) to be considered a legitimate sports car).

If the Karma could get the range up to a 100 miles, increase the price by about 10-20 or so, I would be in line today to get one. I absolutely LOVE the Karma its an amazing looking car both inside and out!

Two toddler car seats in the back, a stroller, a push car and sand toys for the local park. On longer trips, diapers, wipes, and clothes for the weekend as well as strollers and other paraphernalia. The Karma couldn't work even if I could afford it. The 60 kWh Model S though is nearly half the price and does work.

 

[Yggdrasill]

If your goal is to get the lowest time possible on a track, the Tesla's aren't that good, and can't be said to be very good track cars. If the goal is to have fun with your car on a track, and get as low a time as you can, then they are quite good track cars.

While the low top speed limits them as track cars time-wise, the awesome acceleration makes them fun to drive on a track. I personally hope Tesla sticks in a two or three speed (optional?) transmission in the next generation roadster. For day-to-day useage you could leave it in first gear, but then, when you need to go 200+ mph on a track, you can use the other gears.

 

[Doug_G]

First of all, thanks for the review. Good to see a different point of view.

I have also test driven both cars... I have to disagree with you on two points:

Acceleration - The Model S does a phenomenal job at this - 0-60 times really feel fast. But not any faster than my Karma, despite what the numbers may say.

Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with you here. The Model S acceleration is significantly faster, no matter what mode the Karma is in. It's not just faster by the numbers, it feels enormously faster.

(Also the Karma in Stealth mode is downright slow.)

Handling - The Model S definitely felt flat in the turns and compared to an ICE car, handled very well. I would describe the handling as very similar to the Karma, although the Karma does feel a little heavier in certain situations, but again, not by that much. Both cars are great in turns and feel solid.

I have to disagree here, too. The only time the Karma felt really heavy was in corners. The Model S is amazingly nimble. The Karma's braking is like a ton of bricks - quite impressive - but cornering, not so much.

 

[doug]

The Karma is using permanent magnet motors, so it's possible that the car has more torque off the line, but you'd expect that to fall off quickly since the motors are limited to 6000 RPM.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I've had my Karma for 6 mos now, rougly 2,000 miles or so. I drove the Model S for about 12 minutes +/-. I think best way to compare both is to have both cars at the same event, driving the same route, and drives back to back to allow for easy comparison. Hopefully when the Model S is at all of the Tesla stores in September, this will be possible. If I didn't have a work conflict, my plan was to test drive the Model S at the Hawthorne event and drive that exact same route with my Karma to compare. We'll just have to wait for the true apples to apples comparison.

 

[vfx]

.... I think best way to compare both is to have both cars at the same event, driving the same route, and drives back to back to allow for easy comparison.....

Of course. Check acceleration and handling in side by side drives measuring real world numeric comparisons.


Though your feelings will likely not change so why bother?

 

[dmckinstry]

On regen braking: the easy way to think of the Model S is that the right pedal controls the motor, and the left pedal controls the hydraulic brakes. When your foot isn't on the motor's pedal, it's in full regen. So, putting your foot on the brake pedal adds the hydraulic brake to the regenerative braking. Anything else really doesn't make sense.

That makes sense to me, but has anyone officially confirmed it. I hope it's true.

 

[ElSupreme]

I am going to back up SoCalGuy here. A slower car can FEEL much faster, or quicker, than it is.

My Dodge Neon produced a ton of noise and vibration at 75mph. My GTI is smooth and silky at 100mph. The Neon 'FELT' like I was traveling faster. I am sure that many of you can agree to this. There were so many comments that went like this "I didn't even know I was at 60mph." in all the test ride.

A quickness feel can work the same way. You register a time it takes you to get to the 'FEEL'' of 60mph. In the Fisker it is really 55mph, in the S it is 65mph. It takes the same amount of time. Also it is very possible the Fisker is quicker to 10 or 20 mph due to it's higher torque to the ground. This will produce a initial jerk that is greater than that of the S. Which would add to a quicker feel.

Vision, sound, proximity to stationary objects all distort our perception of speed. Heck seat support will greatly affect your quickness 'FEEL'. It can easily feel faster and not actually be faster. Same goes with quicker. SoCalGuy even admitted to the numbers showing that the S is significantly faster. And the S feeling faster past about 50mph, and noticeably faster 60-80mph.

I can tell you I feel a lot faster on my road race bicycle than I do in my car going 30mph! It is because I am much closer to objects. I have almost no vision that does not show movement (tunnel vision is a true killer of speed feel). It is loud and windy. 30mph in my car is painfully slow. 30mph on my bike is very brisk. Sure acceleration wise my car wins in 'FEEL' but not to my mountain bike when I drop down a trail. And I know I am not going anywhere near as fast or quick but it 'FEELS' faster/quicker on my bicycles.

EDIT: DISCLAIMER: I have not driven either a Fisker Karma, or a Tesla Model S. I have driven a Dodge Neon and a VW GTI, as well as ridden many bicycles. All of my speeds are generalizations and may not reflect your 'feel' or real life. Except my Dodge Neon felt like you were about to hit the sound barrier at 75mph, and 30 on a bicycle feels WAY faster than 30mph in ANY car I have ever driven.

 

[cinergi]

I am going to back up SoCalGuy here. A slower car can FEEL much faster, or quicker, than it is.

The non-perf Model S felt slow to me. Then I realized we'd accelerated to 75 MPH somehow. It was very deceiving. Without the jerkiness of shifting or sound to guide your butt-o-meter, it's easy to think a car is slower than it is.
That said, perception is important. Most people aren't going to think about the above observation. How many people buy based on feeling the acceleration? How many based on the smoothness?

 

[DuncanWatson]

EDIT: DISCLAIMER: I have not driven either a Fisker Karma, or a Tesla Model S. I have driven a Dodge Neon and a VW GTI, as well as ridden many bicycles. All of my speeds are generalizations and may not reflect your 'feel' or real life. Except my Dodge Neon felt like you were about to hit the sound barrier at 75mph, and 30 on a bicycle feels WAY faster than 30mph in ANY car I have ever driven.

52 mph on a bike feels insane. Especially if you are passing a few dozen cyclists on a 200 mile ride (STP). I hit 50+ MPH on a particular downhill of the STP in 2010, your focus contracts quite a bit.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am going to back up SoCalGuy here. A slower car can FEEL much faster, or quicker, than it is.

You have a point there. I think most people describe the Model S's acceleration as effortless (as in you don't realize how fast you are going without looking at the speedometer). May have to do with the air suspension gliding over the road and reduced steering wheel feedback from the electronic power steering. You also "feel" like you are going faster if you sit lower (the Karma is lower than the Model S).

So I guess it comes down to how well adjusted your butt-o-meter is to the actual speed of the car.

 

[doug]

Though your feelings will likely not change so why bother?

Come on, let's be fair. I appreciate that SoCal wants to provide an informed opinion.

 

[vfx]

Come on, let's be fair. I appreciate that SoCal wants to provide an informed opinion.

An informed conclusion that is skewed by emotion will likely be moot.

 

[brianman]

An informed conclusion that is skewed by emotion will likely be moot.

That's a bit overstated. Just document the bias, and let the reader filter accordingly.

 

[SoCalGuy]

An informed conclusion that is skewed by emotion will likely be moot.

There's no such thing as an unbiased observation.

 

[AnOutsider]

There's no such thing as an unbiased observation.

"Today, the sky has a blue appearance to my eye."

I agree though, let's hear it from all angles. Next time I'm in LA Socal, I'd like an extended ride in your Karma. I have a finely-calibrated butt-dyno

 

[stopcrazypp]

None of them beat last year's best Roadster record. And, the Roadster is a relatively lousy track car, as shown by a Leaf with upgraded suspension and tires (but stock battery/motor) doing so well, comparatively.

Heck, a Honda Civic SI beat many of the Roadsters (http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html).

I would be very careful comparing Refuel numbers with fastest lap numbers on Laguna Seca. Refuel is a shared track event on a relatively short track (in other words, it involves passing). The numbers on fastestlaps were likely done on an empty track.

Plus the Roadster Refuel record (1.50.883) is better than the 2009 MX-5's (a good handler) track record. With an empty track the Roadster Sport can probably do even better. I would love to see the Model S Performance's time on Laguna Seca.

I also would not underestimate the effects of upgraded suspension and tires. A good set of racing tires can make a HUGE difference.
The Leaf went from a stock lateral grip of 0.79G to 0.97G just by changing the tires! I have no doubt the Leaf can surpass 1.0G with the addition of suspension mods.
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

C&D rates the Roadster Sport at 0.9Gs.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2010-tesla-roadster-sport-review

 

[ckessel]

I really appreciate SoCalGuy's info as well and I can certainly empathize with going by how something feels. I got my RX8 because it felt faster than the equivalent Mustang. It's not, at least in a drag race, but it sure felt more fun and responsive. I don't care much about the reality of the numbers when I drive, I care about how fun it feels to drive.

 

[strider]

I would be very careful comparing Refuel numbers with fastest lap numbers on Laguna Seca. Refuel is a shared track event on a relatively short track (in other words, it involves passing). The numbers on fastestlaps were likely done on an empty track.

Well, Refuel also has a time trial section where you do get a flying lap on an open track so in theory those are good numbers. But Idk if any of the Roadster numbers are from advanced or professional drivers vs owners going out and having fun. Driver makes a big difference...