Karma -vs- Model S

[jason.auch]

One reason Tesla may not have put regen on the brake pedal would be to prevent the brake pedal from behaving differently after a range charge or a cold day (when the regen is automatically disabled).

Consistency of braking behaviour would be paramount for the general public.

It's already bizarre enough when the regen is off via the accelerator due to cold, or a full range charge (Roadster). I presume the Model S behaves the same way.

I am not sure how the Karma handles this.

 

[smoothoperator]

SCG great analysis...I really love the looks of the Karma, the interior materials and layout are MUCH better than the Model S, the exterior is to die for. There is something about the interior materials in the ECO-CHIC that is very attractive to me. Every time I sit in an Eco-Chic model the interior feels comfortable and familiar. The padding and materials are beyond a doubt some of the finest in ANY car (and they are all recycled and use no animal products). Unbelievable feat of interior design and execution! I like the 2+2 seating arrangement in the Karma, I think it looks cleaner than the typical rear bench.

I am not so sure why everyone is hung up on the amount of cargo capacity in the Model S. Maybe Costco runs? I have no idea what people could possibly be carrying everyday to need a bunch of cargo room? I guess its great to have "just in case."

I find it funny that some of the comments here love to play up the sporty nature of the Model S, it weighs 4600 lbs! Regardless of where the center of gravity is, it still feels heavy. The Karma & Model S are not sports cars, they may have some characteristics that may emulate some of the characteristics and features of a sports car, but at the end of the day they, both are large heavy vehicles (akin to using a swiss army knife to filet a fish). You need the right tool for the job , and neither are the right tools if you are talking about a "sporty car." There is no way a 4600lb car can be considered sporty, either these people who claim the Model S handles like a sports car have never driven a legitimate sports car or they "think" that is the way a sports car should handle. This is the same with the Roadster (it is a great commuter car, but it is not a "great" sports car it is much too heavy (also weight in the wrong place) to be considered a legitimate sports car).

If the Karma could get the range up to a 100 miles, increase the price by about 10-20 or so, I would be in line today to get one. I absolutely LOVE the Karma its an amazing looking car both inside and out!

 

[jkirkebo]

I am not so sure why everyone is hung up on the amount of cargo capacity in the Model S. Maybe Costco runs? I have no idea what people could possibly be carrying everyday to need a bunch of cargo room? I guess its great to have "just in case."

Personally I'm buying the Model S for long trips, like to our cabin in the mountains or driving vacations. We have to carry a lot of stuff then, a Karma would be completely useless to us. There's a reason I bought a Leaf and not a Roadster.

BTW we love the Leaf (will keep it too, when the S arrives) but the cargo capacity is sadly lacking. I wish they hadn't put that "hump" in the trunk, it is really in the way.

But if one mainly use it for commuting, I agree that one doesn't need all that cargo capacity. I don't commute by car though, I take my e-bike to the station and ride the train for an hour.

The Karma seems to be an "either love it or hate it" car. Personally, I hate the way it looks, from every angle. Interior too. I wouldn't ever want to be seen in one and would rather drive a Coda if that were the alternative

 

[Jeeps17]

I am not so sure why everyone is hung up on the amount of cargo capacity in the Model S. Maybe Costco runs? I have no idea what people could possibly be carrying everyday to need a bunch of cargo room? I guess its great to have "just in case."

I in turn am not so sure why anyone would NOT get why such cargo space could be useful on a daily basis to a great many people...

Your needs do not equate to a lack of usefulness for the rest of us, and not just for Costco runs, or "just in case".

To give you a concrete example, I have four young children who all still require boosters, and at this time the S is the ONLY sedan on the market in which I can carry my entire family (we currently use a minivan).

With a family of 6, guess how much cargo space I'll need...

As to the sport-car comparison, I cannot give a first-hand opinion, as I have not driven the S. However, as it has been often pointed out on these forums, the fact is that there is really nothing else out there to compare this car with. You get some of the best of both worlds, and I am perfectly happy with that (4.4 sec 0-60 with instant torque, linear acceleration and very low CG is at the very least "sporty" in my book, irrespective of the car's weight).

 

[smoothoperator]

I in turn am not so sure why anyone would NOT get why such cargo space could be useful on a daily basis to a great many people...

Your needs do not equate to a lack of usefulness for the rest of us, and not just for Costco runs, or "just in case".

To give you a concrete example, I have four young children who all still require boosters, and at this time the S is the ONLY sedan on the market in which I can carry my entire family (we currently use a minivan).

With a family of 6, guess how much cargo space I'll need...

As to the sport-car comparison, I cannot give a first-hand opinion, as I have not driven the S. However, as it has been often pointed out on these forums, the fact is that there is really nothing else out there to compare this car with. You get some of the best of both worlds, and I am perfectly happy with that (4.4 sec 0-60 with instant torque, linear acceleration and very low CG is at the very least "sporty" in my book, irrespective of the car's weight).

If I had 4 young children, I would not be looking at any sedan or hatchback, probably look at a suburban or mini-van. Personally I would not feel comfortable with my kid in those rear jump seats for a significant amount of time. For me the better tool would be a larger vehicle that was permanently designed to hold 6 adults (perhaps even the Model X)? This is what makes this forum useful; different perceptions of usability. The Karma is more or less an adult car, on par with high-end luxury GT's, Model S is more or less a mid-size premium car.

 

[Jeeps17]

If I had 4 young children, I would not be looking at any sedan or hatchback, probably look at a suburban or mini-van. Personally I would not feel comfortable with my kid in those rear jump seats for a significant amount of time. For me the better tool would be a larger vehicle that was permanently designed to hold 6 people (perhaps even the Model X)? This is what makes this forum useful; different perceptions of usability. The Karma is more or less an adult car, on par with high-end luxury GT's, Model S is more or less a mid-size premium car.

If all goes according to plan when our minivan bites the dust it will be replaced by an X...

 

[stopcrazypp]

I find it funny that some of the comments here love to play up the sporty nature of the Model S, it weighs 4600 lbs!

It's all subjective right now until we have lateral G and slalom speeds to compare. Sure, neither cars are light or are sports cars, but the Model S is still 700lbs lighter than the Karma and around the same weight as other luxury sports sedans (~4300lbs for the M5 and E63 AMG). I think on a track the Model S will do better than the Karma and will be closer to the sports sedan benchmarks.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I found that article I referred to in my previous post in which Car and Driver compared the Porsche Panamera Turbo to the Aston Martin Rapide. Very similar to my impression of the Model S vs. the Karma.

2010 Aston Martin Rapide vs. 2010 Porsche Panamera Turbo Comparison Tests - Page 2 - Car and Driver

Here's a good excerpt from the article:

“The Panamera is a better high-perform*ance vehicle,” concluded Sutton. “But the Rapide is a better execution of what a car like this should be—all that cachet, curb appeal, that raw emotional draw. The Porsche is *better equipped, more capable, cheaper, and faster. But the Aston is cooler. And *ultimately, that’s what this kind of buyer, I imagine, is after.”

You could almost substitute "Panamera" with "Model S" and "Aston" with "Fisker"...

“The Model S is a better high-perform*ance [higher tech] vehicle,” concluded Sutton. “But the Karma is a better execution of what a car like this should be—all that cachet, curb appeal, that raw emotional draw. The Tesla is *better equipped, more capable, cheaper, and faster. But the Fisker is cooler. And *ultimately, that’s what this kind of buyer, I imagine, is after.”

 

[brianman]

You could almost substitute "Panamera" with "Model S" and "Aston" with "Fisker"...

... except that many people say that the Rapide is part of what sold them on the body shape for the Model S. I've heard nobody say that about the Karma.

So in that aspect -- exterior styling -- this substitution is backwards.

 

[smoothoperator]

It's all subjective right now until we have lateral G and slalom speeds to compare. Sure, neither cars are light or are sports cars, but the Model S is still 700lbs lighter than the Karma and around the same weight as other luxury sports sedans (~4300lbs for the M5 and E63 AMG). I think on a track the Model S will do better than the Karma and will be closer to the sports sedan benchmarks.

Out of curiosity do you really think that the way a 4600lb vs 5300lb car preforms on the track is the main reasoning behind why someone would chose a car over another? The #1 thing that determines how sporty a vehicle is, is the weight. Once you reach a certain point, a car ceases to be considered sporty. The only people that will track these cars are magazine reviews and the auto manufacturer themselves. I highly doubt Harry Smith with a wife and three kids is going to drop his kids and wife off at karate practice then head down to the nurburgring and do a few laps. Its a ridiculous comparison.

 

[smoothoperator]

... except that many people say that the Rapide is part of what sold them on the body shape for the Model S. I've heard nobody say that about the Karma.

So in that aspect -- exterior styling -- this substitution is backwards.

Model S looks like an egg with 4 wheels, it is no comparison to the Rapide, unless you look at both in the dark. Please link me to people comparing the Rapide to the Model S...would love to read that thread. IMO the Karma looks better than the Rapide.

 

[brianman]

Please link me to people comparing the Rapide to the Model S...

That's not what I said. Many people fell in love with the Rapide's look and were delighted that the S reminded them of it. For many, and definitely me, the Karma doesn't remind me of the Rapide at all.

Sidenote: I like the look of the Panamera as well.

Full disclosure: The Karma just screams "look at me, I need attention", so I've never liked it. I don't think that influences my characterization above, but it definitely influences my overall perspective.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Out of curiosity do you really think that the way a 4600lb vs 5300lb car preforms on the track is the main reasoning behind why someone would chose a car over another? The #1 thing that determines how sporty a vehicle is, is the weight. Once you reach a certain point, a car ceases to be considered sporty. The only people that will track these cars are magazine reviews and the auto manufacturer themselves. I highly doubt Harry Smith with a wife and three kids is going to drop his kids and wife off at karate practice then head down to the nurburgring and do a few laps. Its a ridiculous comparison.

99.9% of sports sedan buyers aren't going to go to the nurburgring with it, but enough buyers want a "sporty" sedan that the M5, E63 AMG makes sense as an option on the market and you get frequent arguments over which one performs better in handling (for bragging rights). The idea will be the same with the Model S.

Model S looks like an egg with 4 wheels, it is no comparison to the Rapide, unless you look at both in the dark. Please link me to people comparing the Rapide to the Model S...would love to read that thread. IMO the Karma looks better than the Rapide.

Most people that comment on the Model S's styling say that the Model S looks very similar to an Aston Martin, Maserati, or Jaguar, even the journalists.
"On the outside, the Model S is undeniably svelte, with sleek lines that evoke such stunners as the Aston Martin Rapide"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/2012/06/22/elon-musk-delivers-the-first-tesla-model-s-car/
"The pure electric Tesla Model S is a gorgeous looking car, with shades of Jaguar XF or Aston Martin Rapide."
http://www.thechargingpoint.com/opinions/Tesla-Model-S-we-take-a-ride.html
"Suffice to say the Model S is a nice looking car, having a shape that's not altogether dissimilar from an Aston Martin DBS but softened a bit"
http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/06/tesla-model-s-test-ride-and-factory-tour-video/
"And with an exterior hinting of Maserati, Aston Martin and Jaguar, the Model S certainly looks the part."
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2013-tesla-model-s
"The Model S is a big car, 196 inches long, or almost exactly the same length as a Jaguar XF, to which it bears more than a passing resemblance."
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-tesla-model-s-first-ride-reviews
A whole thread on the Model S looking like an XF:
http://www.teslamotors.com/it_IT/fo...ticed-how-similar-model-s-resembles-jaguar-xf

Keep in mind that looks are very subjective. In general though, I think most people would say the Karma looks more stunning, but the styling is more polarizing (mainly the grille). The Model S looks more like a classic sports sedan.

 

[strider]

When my wife and I saw Model S for the first time (pre-Alpha) we both thought it looked like a cross between an Aston and Maserati. It's changed over time to be more of its own car but that initial white car we both could see those other cars in it.

 

[spatterso911]

Model S looks like an egg with 4 wheels, it is no comparison to the Rapide, unless you look at both in the dark. Please link me to people comparing the Rapide to the Model S...would love to read that thread. IMO the Karma looks better than the Rapide.

Smooth, I'm glad you're here, cause people might mistake this for a fanboy forum.

We all need someone to stir the pot and keep it fresh.

Would like to know what sedans you think are sporty.

I think the Karma is sporty, and I think the MSP is sporty. For different reasons. Karma may not excite on the road, but it looks every bit the part of a sports sedan, not unlike a CLS 550 or 640i Gran Sport. MSP may not have the most sporty looks, but it does perform like a sports sedan, and there is really only a short list of sedans that should perform better, regardless of price range. I can't wait for the stats to prove that educated assumption.

 

[Robert.Boston]

FWIW, I first found the Tesla Model S in 2009, when I was shopping for a new car. I was mooning after a Rapide, and mistook the alpha Model S for one (on a small picture!). So, I'm certainly in the Rapide-->Model S camp.

On regen braking: the easy way to think of the Model S is that the right pedal controls the motor, and the left pedal controls the hydraulic brakes. When your foot isn't on the motor's pedal, it's in full regen. So, putting your foot on the brake pedal adds the hydraulic brake to the regenerative braking. Anything else really doesn't make sense.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

It's all subjective right now until we have lateral G and slalom speeds to compare. Sure, neither cars are light or are sports cars, but the Model S is still 700lbs lighter than the Karma and around the same weight as other luxury sports sedans (~4300lbs for the M5 and E63 AMG). I think on a track the Model S will do better than the Karma and will be closer to the sports sedan benchmarks.

I'm still fairly optimistic that the extremely stiff chassis and super low Cg will make MSP a star performer in turning performance, compared to its performance sedan competitors. The key unreviewed elements are the skidpad lateral G tests, slaloms, and braking tests. Even with the weight penalty, MSP looks very well positioned on lateral G's and slaloms based on the physics of the car. Braking ~300+ extra pounds is an engineering problem which can be solved, but its not like MSP competitors don't have an incentive to maximize braking performance, so I expect MSP to lag a tiny bit in this department.

In terms of this thread, I don't think that the Karma is in remotely the same league as MSP in terms of performance. As stated earlier in the thread, there is a 2 second difference in 0-60 times. I don't buy the idea that even the 0-30 times are similar, but to the extent that they are it just deepens my skepticism of performance claims by the Karma. If it is keeping up in 0-30 times, then it must be deeply underperforming in the 30-60 range, which does not bode well for performance at higher speeds as it gets progressively harder to accelerate.

That said, I agree the Karma is a beautiful car and is worth the money on its own merits (though I truly hate the grill, no matter how much character it has :smile. It's performance is roughly equal to an entry level performance sedan but the issues with practicality make me not want to put it into a category for which it otherwise qualifies. I prefer to think of it as a unique luxury car with good performance, outstanding looks and a hybrid powertrain which is very efficient in shorter trips. Those are excellent qualities, and none of them require that you attempt to compare yourself to the mass market performance sedans which the MS line is targeting.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

When my wife and I saw Model S for the first time (pre-Alpha) we both thought it looked like a cross between an Aston and Maserati. It's changed over time to be more of its own car but that initial white car we both could see those other cars in it.

A couple of months ago I was watching a car report on some YouTube channel (I forget which one). The first car talked about was the Aston Martin Rapide. When that segment ended, they put up a photo of the MS next to it and discussed the launch of MS. The cars looked very similar outside of the ground effects on the Rapide, but what really made me laugh was how the guy doing the report insisted on doing all kinds of performance comparisons between the MS and the Leaf. It was a classic example of the media putting on EV blinders and ignoring the reality right in front of them.

 

[domenick]

There's some similarities. Also, differences.

 

[teslasuperfan]

Out of curiosity do you really think that the way a 4600lb vs 5300lb car preforms on the track is the main reasoning behind why someone would chose a car over another? The #1 thing that determines how sporty a vehicle is, is the weight. Once you reach a certain point, a car ceases to be considered sporty. The only people that will track these cars are magazine reviews and the auto manufacturer themselves. I highly doubt Harry Smith with a wife and three kids is going to drop his kids and wife off at karate practice then head down to the nurburgring and do a few laps. Its a ridiculous comparison.

I absolutely believe Model S is a legitimate sports sedan (in the class of M5) and is also an excellent track car despite it's weight. Look at the lap times at REFUEL 2012 below for production class. The top four times are from Model Ses. They convincingly blew away the Roadsters despite weighing about 2000 lbs more.

2012 CARS
CLASS PLACE DRIVER VEHICLE LAP TIME SPEED (AVG)
PROTOTYPE 1 KEVIN MITZ Kleenspeed EV-X11 1:32.046 87.5
PROTOTYPE 2 IKUO HANAWA Summit HER-02 1:48.936 73.9
PROTOTYPE 3 MATT BROWN Tesla Model S Prototype 1:59.479 67.4
PROTOTYPE 4 STEVEN MUSCARELLI Custom Electric Kart 2:25.353 55.4

PRODUCTION 1 SEAN WHEELER Tesla Model S 1:51.832 72.0
PRODUCTION 2 AARON BAILEY Tesla Model S 1:52.774 71.4
PRODUCTION 3 JOHN SPRUILL Tesla MODEL S 1:52.931 71.3
PRODUCTION 4 DALE SIEVWRIGHT Tesla Model S 1:56.126 69.4
PRODUCTION 5 BILL ARNETT Tesla Roadster 1:58.449 68.0
PRODUCTION 6 HUIBERT MEES Tesla Model S 1:59.468 67.4
PRODUCTION 7 JOHN ROBISON Tesla Roadster Sport 2:00.181 67.0
PRODUCTION 8 STEVE HAND Tesla Roadster 2:02.116 66.0
PRODUCTION 9 NADER ASSEMI Nissan Leaf 2:02.883 65.6
PRODUCTION 10 TIMOTHY RODGERS Tesla Roadster 2:02.985 65.5
PRODUCTION 11 DAVID ALLMON Tesla Roadster 2:03.239 65.4
PRODUCTION 12 STUART CHESHIRE Tesla Roadster 2:03.970 65.0
PRODUCTION 13 DON LOUV BMW ActiveE 2:06.494 63.7
PRODUCTION 14 BENNETT LEEDS Tesla Roadster 2:09.042 62.4
PRODUCTION 15 JON PARKER BMW ActiveE 2:11.508 61.3
PRODUCTION 16 CORY LAGOE CODA 1.0 2:12.109 61.0
PRODUCTION 17 ADRIAN COCKCROFT Nissan Leaf 2:12.331 60.9
PRODUCTION 18 MATT WALTON Nissan Leaf 2:13.311 60.4
PRODUCTION 19 JACK BROWN BMW ActiveE 2:15.904 59.3
PRODUCTION 20 RICK UMSTATTD Nissan Leaf 2:16.456 59.0
PRODUCTION 21 EMRE TUNCER BMW ActiveE 2:16.994 58.8
PRODUCTION 22 STEPHEN CASNER Tesla Roadster 2:19.538 57.7
PRODUCTION 23 JER GRANUCCI BMW ActiveE 2:22.134 56.6
PRODUCTION 24 HOWARD CLEARFIELD Nissan Leaf 2:41.355 49.9

CONVERSION 1 RICHARD RODRIGUEZ Porsche 914 Conversion 2:36.961 51.3
CONVERSION 2 STEPHEN JOHNSEN Pontiac Fiero Conversion 2:41.966 49.7
CONVERSION 3 MARK BUSH Bradley GT-E 2:46.325 48.4