Karma -vs- Model S

[Doug_G]

Well, I'm not talking about sudden steering movements. I'm referring to a lane change while applying full acceleration, moderate steering input only, moving into the next lane.

Most vehicles would do the same thing, if you could apply as much power as the Model S. An abrupt change in acceleration will unsettle the suspension on any car. It's just that on most cars nothing much happens when you hammer the pedal. Race car drivers have to be very smooth with their inputs.

 

[qwk]

Most vehicles would do the same thing, if you could apply as much power as the Model S. An abrupt change in acceleration will unsettle the suspension on any car. It's just that on most cars nothing much happens when you hammer the pedal. Race car drivers have to be very smooth with their inputs.

+1. You can't have it both ways. It's either extreme performance and some loss in stability or put put and full control.

 

[AnOutsider]

Most vehicles would do the same thing, if you could apply as much power as the Model S. An abrupt change in acceleration will unsettle the suspension on any car. It's just that on most cars nothing much happens when you hammer the pedal. Race car drivers have to be very smooth with their inputs.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of this. Being that things got better after an update (for most, anyway), it sounds more like it was possibly something with Tesla's programming of the TC, SC or Air Suspension. I've driven high torque cars (granted they've usually been AWD) and never experienced what I felt in the S.

 

[spatterso911]

I'm not sure I'm convinced of this. Being that things got better after an update (for most, anyway), it sounds more like it was possibly something with Tesla's programming of the TC, SC or Air Suspension. I've driven high torque cars (granted they've usually been AWD) and never experienced what I felt in the S.

Agreed. My prior vehicles were not slouches, all had similar or greater torque, sports suspensions, lighter weight, and quick throttle response. Granted, none have the responsiveness of the Tesla, but the rear end shimmy is a bit unsettling, and I've never had that experience in any of the rear drive cars I've owned.

 

[Doug_G]

I'm not sure I'm convinced of this. Being that things got better after an update (for most, anyway), it sounds more like it was possibly something with Tesla's programming of the TC, SC or Air Suspension. I've driven high torque cars (granted they've usually been AWD) and never experienced what I felt in the S.

We're all used to being babied by technology. Get in a "real" race car and see how you do without the training wheels. I've had the opportunity to drive a Van Diemen Formula car - and spun a few times before I got the hang of it!

Believe it or not - this is me...

Perhaps Tesla has tweaked their stability control. Or maybe you've just gotten used to driving it.

Agreed. My prior vehicles were not slouches, all had similar or greater torque, sports suspensions, lighter weight, and quick throttle response. Granted, none have the responsiveness of the Tesla, but the rear end shimmy is a bit unsettling, and I've never had that experience in any of the rear drive cars I've owned.

The more "snap" you have the more you can unsettle the suspension. What "non-slouch" cars have you driven?

 

[spatterso911]

PM'd you.

 

[dennis]

You're used to being babied by technology. Get in a "real" race car and see how you do without the training wheels. #I've had the opportunity to drive a Van Diemen Formula car - and spun a few times before I got the hang of it!#

The more "snap" you have the more you can unsettle the suspension. What "non-slouch" cars have you driven?

If we need to resort to boasting about our bona fides in order to establish credibility here, I'm game. I did 2 race seasons in at Skip Barber (Laguna Seca) and Russell Racing (Sonoma Raceway). My current non-slouch car is the one in the foreground:

 

[Doug_G]

Awesome stuff! I've only ever done Laguna Seca in a driving simulator. Fun track.

But we are getting way off topic. I've not had the chance to drive the Karma on the highway, so I can't compare the experience.

 

[dennis]

Awesome stuff! I've only ever done Laguna Seca in a driving simulator. Fun track.

But we are getting way off topic. I've not had the chance to drive the Karma on the highway, so I can't compare the experience.

Just like you, I spun the race car several times the first day I got in it. We get so used to road cars with dialed-in understeer and lots of electronic (nanny) interventions that we don't know are happening. So its a real challenge for the chassis designers to come up with a car that meets the needs of the everyday driver and can provide the enthusiast with a fun experience on the twisties. In my mind, BMW is the manufacturer that has done this the best, and Tesla and Fisker would do well to equal what BMW has accomplished in this area.

 

[AnOutsider]

You're used to being babied by technology. Get in a "real" race car and see how you do without the training wheels. (I've had the opportunity to drive a Van Diemen Formula car - and spun a few times before I got the hang of it!)

View attachment 16856
Believe it or not - this is me...

Perhaps Tesla has tweaked their stability control. Or maybe you've just gotten used to driving it.

If you wanted to show off for a minute, cool, but you said "most cars" not "won't baby you race cars". I think we can agree we've entered into the absurd if I'm supposed to accept behavior on my 5 seater sedan that is normal on a high performance race car.

As for me getting used to it... You realize there's a whole thread on driving characteristics after the update, don't you? If you didn't experience any of what was reported, fine, but I wish you'd stop making excuses and/or pretending its all in my head.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Who's supposed to step in when mods go at each other?!! Chill, guys.

 

[Doug_G]

Funny, I thought a picture of me in a race car might inspire some laughter.

No, I'm not dismissing it as being "in your head". However, since we're into a bit of a Model S versus Karma discussion with respect to handling, let me just state my personal thoughts on the "wiggle". I think there might actually be some human factors involved. If you feel a wiggle and instinctively try to compensate, you can make it worse. If instead you try to hold your hands perfectly steady, you might find the car more stable.

Going back to my earlier comment about rolling a short wheelbase SUV, many years ago I almost did exactly that. I pulled out to pass someone and hit the gas, and the rear bucked out. I instinctively counter-steered, and it swung the other way, worse. After another repeat I realized if this kept up I was going to roll it, and the thought suddenly occurred to me that I might be part of the problem. I stopped steering and the truck immediately stabilized.

Now one factor with the Model S is that it does have a lot of oomph... so suppose that this sudden jerk actually causes your hands to move slightly, inducing the wobble. With the weight going to the rear wheels the steering is lighter, and that would contribute to the effect.

 

[brianman]

Just another data point...

When I read Doug_G's race car post I smiled ("one of ours") and laughed ("omg, one of ours...poor car"). I didn't read any "measuring" intent in that post.

 

[Doug_G]

I edited my post slightly to make it clear I wasn't referring to anyone specifically.

 

[smorgasbord]

Funny, I thought a picture of me in a race car might inspire some laughter.

Nah, I recognized you instantly from your smile, hair style, and eye color.

 

[bonnie]

Who's supposed to step in when mods go at each other?!! Chill, guys.

I was on vacation.

 

[vfx]

Fisker had their Twitter account hacked. Weight loss might be good for their car to get it to S weight.

Fisker Automotive (FiskerAuto) on Twitter

Fisker Automotive ‏@FiskerAuto
We know that the fans and followers of Fiskerauto don't need to lose weight... Disregard our last tweet as we were hacked like other OEMS.

 

[rolosrevenge]

To which other OEMs do you think they were referring?

 

[SByer]

People still have twitter accounts? What year is this again? ;-)

 

[rolosrevenge]

Some people do evidently. I only use it for my two different websites to promote. Not that I have many followers.