Precisely, the Juicebox provides ~2.8-3.6 kW/hr charge with a dual 120V adaptor. This could also be very handy while traveling to locations (hotels) where J1772 charging stations are not readily available, but one could perhaps plug into a standard 110/120V outlet. After an overnight charge, one could get up to 80 miles of additional range. Beats having to sit somewhere and wait.
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Kickstarter Level 2 charger: $109-$329
- Thread starter SteveW25561
- Start date
Precisely, the Juicebox provides ~2.8-3.6 kW/hr charge with a dual 120V adaptor. This could also be very handy while traveling to locations (hotels) where J1772 charging stations are not readily available, but one could perhaps plug into a standard 110/120V outlet. After an overnight charge, one could get up to 80 miles of additional range. Beats having to sit somewhere and wait.
This is not completely correct. The NEC section you are refering to applies to 120v recepticals. Most of your customers already have a 120v EVSE so they will be using your product at 240V. Most 240v outlets do not have GFCI at all.
Also the trip point on standard GFCI is 5ma but GFCI built into EVSEs are alloweded to trip at 20ma. If you rely on outlet GFCI you are not following NEC and your customers my not be able to charge reliablely. 5ma is just too sensitive.
I would suggest including GFCI in all your products to protect your customers and yourself from liability. Take a look at OpenEVSE the link is in my signature block, it has a simple but effective GFCI circuit. The components cost about $1 plus the CT. Even if you don't include the CT to keep the cost down at least it can be easily added.
Assuming 15KW at 240VAC (62.5Amps), then you're looking at something like 75-80 Amp rated breakers (due to NEC derating requirments for continuous service) and a hardwired installation. While it's not impossible, you definitely aren't going to do it with the kit they are selling today and it's not clear what the cost will be for one that can handle 60+ Amps. I'd stick with something that is field proven.
Something that is field proven like the Tesla HPWC? You know, the one that could only run at 60A? Sorry, couldn't resist. But it is a good point, this is a brand new product and until they get experience, it isn't clear they'll be successful running it at 60A. But hey, that's what kick starters are for! If you want proven, pay $2000 for a 70A clipper creek...
I'm confused why the kickstarter team says they will have 60amp components and can provide 15kw. Do they mean 72 amp but down to 60amp continuous? Or are they being disingenuous.
Depending on whether they are 72/60 amp or 60/48 here is my analysis for Model S users:
1. kickstarter. if its only 60amp parts, then can drive it at 80%*60=48 = 11 kwh, basically same as umc. Fully power single charger around $600. A little cheaper if you put it together yourself or don't get fancy display.
2. tesla umc 10kw (11kw in europes, so is the euro spec one 48x240?), fully powers 1 charger at 240v 50amp (40amps cont) at $650 - and you already have one of these
3. kickstarter if its 15kwh because its 72amps but 60amp continuous, not much point for single charger people, but twin charger people around $600
4. tesla hpwc, 20kwhy, basically for twin charger people, $1200
If the kickstarter people do come up with a 72amp/60amp continuous charger then it has a place as a slightly poor mans home charger system. If you have a single charger, it's no better than a UMC. The only reason to get one would be maybe so you could leave your umc in the car, and you could have this at your house so provides minor convenience. A second (permanently at home) UMC is more reliable and rated by Tesla, but it wouldn't work on another car. If you have twin chargers, and they really are 72amp parts, then it's kind of half the cost and 3/4 of the charging capability of the hpwc.
Since I have a single charger, I don't see much point to this. If I did get one, I'd also get another tesla-j1772 adapter so that I could plug it into my tesla without having to get out my kit from the car. Or if I had a second electric car that was non-tesla (leaf, imiev, mits phev, volt, elantra elr). I guess a spark can use j1772?
Depending on whether they are 72/60 amp or 60/48 here is my analysis for Model S users:
1. kickstarter. if its only 60amp parts, then can drive it at 80%*60=48 = 11 kwh, basically same as umc. Fully power single charger around $600. A little cheaper if you put it together yourself or don't get fancy display.
2. tesla umc 10kw (11kw in europes, so is the euro spec one 48x240?), fully powers 1 charger at 240v 50amp (40amps cont) at $650 - and you already have one of these
3. kickstarter if its 15kwh because its 72amps but 60amp continuous, not much point for single charger people, but twin charger people around $600
4. tesla hpwc, 20kwhy, basically for twin charger people, $1200
If the kickstarter people do come up with a 72amp/60amp continuous charger then it has a place as a slightly poor mans home charger system. If you have a single charger, it's no better than a UMC. The only reason to get one would be maybe so you could leave your umc in the car, and you could have this at your house so provides minor convenience. A second (permanently at home) UMC is more reliable and rated by Tesla, but it wouldn't work on another car. If you have twin chargers, and they really are 72amp parts, then it's kind of half the cost and 3/4 of the charging capability of the hpwc.
Since I have a single charger, I don't see much point to this. If I did get one, I'd also get another tesla-j1772 adapter so that I could plug it into my tesla without having to get out my kit from the car. Or if I had a second electric car that was non-tesla (leaf, imiev, mits phev, volt, elantra elr). I guess a spark can use j1772?
Seattle, you're conflating NEC codes with manufacturer part ratings. The NEC only applies to in building wiring. You have to go the manufacturer specs to see what they say about their parts. On the kickstarter page, the guys say they are using 60A rated parts. So you'd you an 80 amp breaker and 80A wire or whatever and actually get 60A output from it.
For generic Tesla charging at home, it might not make sense, but I do see applications for it in other areas.
For generic Tesla charging at home, it might not make sense, but I do see applications for it in other areas.
valerun
Member
Hi Phil - EMW here.
You're right about the 40A from a single plug. So it either has to be hardwired or sourced from dual 14-50 or similar.
Part of the value proposition here is the mobility of the unit and that you can take it with you as a secondary EVSE and plug in anywhere you can find 14-50, 10-30 outlets, etc..
Thanks,
Valery,
valerun
Member
Hi Chris - great to have you comment here. Utmost respect to you and your crew for the open-evse.
The JuiceBox at any level will include the provision for GFCI so it can be added quickly (premium version will have it by default, of course). After all the feedback, we are actually now considering providing full GFCI at the base level, as well. Working with our supply chain guys to see if we can do it.
Re certification - good points on [initial] lack of UL certification. The DIY nature of this initial push and start-up volume does not allow us to do certification upfront but that's in the plan for later this year. All the components used in the JuiceBox are UL listed and rated for specified power levels.
Finally, on power capability - as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, we have been building 12kW EV chargers for EV conversions for the last 2 years. Right now, we have 25kW smart chargers in pre-production - you can see videos of those in action at http://www.youtube.com/vmiftakhov (20kW level as of 2 weeks ago). The JuiceBoxes are being tested with these chargers right now. We will be posting some 15-20kW run videos of JuiceBoxes soon. Sign up for KickStarter updates to get notified when we post them.
Thanks!
Valery.
As one of the members mentioned here - this is what
valerun
Member
EMW JuiceBox has reached its initial funding goal on kickstarter
Hi all, EMW here.
EMW has announced that Juicebox kickstarter campaign has reached its initial funding goal on July 10th, 2013 - with 13 days left to go. Find the project on kickstarter at [url]http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1076207974/emw-juicebox-an-open-source-level-2-ev-charging-st[/URL]
Thank you all for your great support! The JuiceBox is now REAL!
On to the stretch goal of $40K to make it a Wi-Fi ready!
If kickstarter reaches $40K goal EMW R&D will write all the support software to make WiFi Shield plug and play. EMW will also launch an online service that will allow you to access your JuiceBox and get stats / analysis / real-time status etc.
EMW will also make WiFi shields available through EMW store and you would be able to add that as an option before we ship your unit. The current 'official' seller of the official Arduino WiFi shield is SparkFun: [url]https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11287[/URL]. EMW plans to source their own stock and expect to be able to offer that at a better price. EMW team is already testing a couple of shields to make sure they hit the right combination of reliability and cost.
To read more on the latest JuiceBox news and media coverage go to: EMW Newsletter #10, July 10, 2013
Thanks,
EMW JuiceBox team
Hi all, EMW here.
EMW has announced that Juicebox kickstarter campaign has reached its initial funding goal on July 10th, 2013 - with 13 days left to go. Find the project on kickstarter at [url]http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1076207974/emw-juicebox-an-open-source-level-2-ev-charging-st[/URL]
Thank you all for your great support! The JuiceBox is now REAL!
On to the stretch goal of $40K to make it a Wi-Fi ready!
If kickstarter reaches $40K goal EMW R&D will write all the support software to make WiFi Shield plug and play. EMW will also launch an online service that will allow you to access your JuiceBox and get stats / analysis / real-time status etc.
EMW will also make WiFi shields available through EMW store and you would be able to add that as an option before we ship your unit. The current 'official' seller of the official Arduino WiFi shield is SparkFun: [url]https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11287[/URL]. EMW plans to source their own stock and expect to be able to offer that at a better price. EMW team is already testing a couple of shields to make sure they hit the right combination of reliability and cost.
To read more on the latest JuiceBox news and media coverage go to: EMW Newsletter #10, July 10, 2013
Thanks,
EMW JuiceBox team
A UMC is $480, and you will actually receive it. It is also backed by a manufacturer with a great track record. On the flip side, this is vaporware, that might be manufactured if enough pledge, with no track record, from a company that doesn't have the funds to even produce it. There shouldn't even be a debate.
When I was at the service center last week, I asked about replacement UMCs and they confirmed it's just $480 for the basic unit itself. They also said they can sell the UMC, two adapters and the bag for less then $650. Even they say it's silly for the on-line store to charge more for a "kit".
As for this Kickstarter project, it looks like something I can take advantage of later. Next year I may be going on a few road trips to stay with friends. In order to charge at their place, I'll need to plug into their dryer outlet. Depending on their house, the UMC may not reach. So what I'm thinking of doing is buying one of these for $109, get a dryer plug for $20 and then pick up a 50 foot long J1772 cable/plug for about $300. This will make a great travel charger that with the extra long cable will be very handy for staying at people's houses where the laundry room may not be inside the garage. However, for home use I don't see much point to this as I would need to purchase an additional dedicated J1772 adapter and it would be more bulky then the UMC.
As for this Kickstarter project, it looks like something I can take advantage of later. Next year I may be going on a few road trips to stay with friends. In order to charge at their place, I'll need to plug into their dryer outlet. Depending on their house, the UMC may not reach. So what I'm thinking of doing is buying one of these for $109, get a dryer plug for $20 and then pick up a 50 foot long J1772 cable/plug for about $300. This will make a great travel charger that with the extra long cable will be very handy for staying at people's houses where the laundry room may not be inside the garage. However, for home use I don't see much point to this as I would need to purchase an additional dedicated J1772 adapter and it would be more bulky then the UMC.
sublimaze1
8Dec2012 / Leeroy Jenkins
I emailed them a few weeks ago (got a response from Valery) and explained that, while I liked the unit, I would want UL certification before I opened myself to litigation on the part of my insurance company for burning my house down. He agreed and said they are working on obtaining this cert.
In the meantime, anyone receive one of these units and if so, does it look as unbecoming as the pictures would indicate on the site?
In the meantime, anyone receive one of these units and if so, does it look as unbecoming as the pictures would indicate on the site?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yep. If it gets UL I see no problem with the unit. No UL is probably a deal breaker for lots of people.
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