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Landlord won't let me charge, says I need a permit for the 125v portable charger?

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The Landlord is not preventing the OP from charging, she just believes that the OP needs a permit prior to being able to charge. It is up to the OP to either get a permit or satisfy the Landlord's concern that a permit is not required. There is nothing the Landlord is requesting that is against the law.
Let's substitute some terms and apply some critical thinking to this and see if that makes sense:

(Altered scenario)
"The landlord is not preventing the OP from charging. She just believes that the OP has to give her a dodo bird prior to being able to charge. It is up to the OP to either give her a dodo bird or convince her that it's impossible because they are extinct. There is nothing the landlord is requesting that is against the law."

So you are saying that the legal responsibility is on the tenant to convince the landlord to change her mind? No--that's not how the law is. Sure--I guess her asking isn't technically against the law. She could ask him to sing a song or anything else, but to forbid him from charging until he does some thing that is not required? Yeah--that definitely is against the law.
 
Sheesh... landlords like that give me a bad name. I put NEMA 14-50 outlet(s) in all (but one, super complicated install) of my rental properties because it attracts good, stable tenants who generally have high paying jobs and tend to pay the bills on time and not trash the place.

Such shortsightedness...

That is a *great* idea... If we loose our current renters in my Wife's old Townhouse I am totally going to do that!!!
 
You're clearly not following this thread very closely. The whole discussion is about plugging into an existing outlet.
Clearly if you add a new circuit or pull any new wire, you need a permit, at least in California you do.


"Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)"

Where exactly does the OP stae the 125 NEMA 5-15-P plug is existing?

Please, there s absolutely NO REASON to get snarky. Simply stae where you think I've erred and move on. I don't
The Landlord is not preventing the OP from charging, she just believes that the OP needs a permit prior to being able to charge. It is up to the OP to either get a permit or satisfy the Landlord's concern that a permit is not required. There is nothing the Landlord is requesting that is against the law.

As many have suggested, my recommendation would also be to have a licensed electrician (that the Landlord approves) inspect the outlet so that the electrician can (A) confirm the wiring was done correctly and can handle the load from charging and (B) can confirm to the Landlord that a permit is not required for a plug-in mobile connector.

Having said all this, the OP has not been on TMC for two days now so he may not be reading any of these posts anymore. We might as well wait for him to resurface and give us all an update.

I have read and reread the OP's post. Nothing to me states they were talking of using a already existing outlet. But IF that's what they meant, of course no permit is needed the plugin to an existing outlet. That is the point of the outlet! Why would anyone even ask, just plug in to it!

I agree, without the OP's clarification of the intent, it's pointless to proceed. Thanks all.
 
Sheesh... landlords like that give me a bad name. I put NEMA 14-50 outlet(s) in all (but one, super complicated install) of my rental properties because it attracts good, stable tenants who generally have high paying jobs and tend to pay the bills on time and not trash the place.

Such shortsightedness...
Cool! I have an RV I need to park in your driveway!;)

090515motorhome.jpg
 
Let's substitute some terms and apply some critical thinking to this and see if that makes sense:

(Altered scenario)
"The landlord is not preventing the OP from charging. She just believes that the OP has to give her a dodo bird prior to being able to charge. It is up to the OP to either give her a dodo bird or convince her that it's impossible because they are extinct. There is nothing the landlord is requesting that is against the law."

So you are saying that the legal responsibility is on the tenant to convince the landlord to change her mind? No--that's not how the law is. Sure--I guess her asking isn't technically against the law. She could ask him to sing a song or anything else, but to forbid him from charging until he does some thing that is not required? Yeah--that definitely is against the law.

I'm assuming you don't have much experience with real estate contracts and regulations but good luck using that analogy in your complaint.
 
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So there is nothing I am aware of that is “against the rules” to plug a Tesla into a regular 5-15 receptacle off a random circuit that already exists. As has been pointed out, the UMC Gen 2 is UL rated, so if folks asked questions I might direct them to that (you can go lookup the UL certification on the UL search tool).

Now with that being said, I am always extremely cautious to plug an EV into an existing circuit since the EV can (will) draw 100% of the circuit capacity and so if there is anything else at all on the entire circuit it may overload it. Traditional circuits are also daisy chained from one receptacle to another and so there are a LOT of potential points of failure.

The danger of involving code inspectors in this discussion is that the NEC says that if you are installing a receptacle for EV charging then it must be a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit. So while nothing is illegal about your existing receptacle and nothing I am aware of precludes you from plugging into a random existing circuits with your Tesla, if you talk to an inspector they probably want a dedicated circuit for a new install.

The charger will never draw more than 80% of the circuit's capacity. Plugging the mobile charger into a 15 amp outlet will result in a 12 amp draw.
 
The charger will never draw more than 80% of the circuit's capacity. Plugging the mobile charger into a 15 amp outlet will result in a 12 amp draw.

Correct. But since the EVSE is a "continuous load" per the NEC's definition, you calculate it as if it was 125% the actual draw, so you calculate it as 15 amps. So therefore you are at 100% of the circuits rated capacity. Per code, nothing else can be on that circuit running at the same time. (but yes, technically you are only drawing 12 amps)

If you have a circuit full of non-continuous loads then you are allowed to take it all the way to 15 amps. You are also allowed combinations of loads - like you could have 4 amps of continuous loads (calculated as 5 amps) plus 10 amps of noncontinuous loads.
 
Hi everyone,

Happy owner of a M3D here.

Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)

As a result, she isn't letting us plug in the Tesla. Public chargers work, but I feel bad clogging up the public infrastructure every week and it's a hike.

Is there any documentation (NEC, building code, anything "official") that specifically states that a permit is *not* required for a car (or any big load) charging on a 5-15P plugged into a NEMA 5-15R?

I need something to show her to assuage her fears/preconceptions.

I've done many searches including exact matches and I can't find any specific references for this.

This is in Palo Alto, CA. There aren't a lot of reasonable housing options here and she is otherwise cool.

Thanks!
Since you're so close to Tesla HQ, why not travel down there and ask. I believe an "in person" conversation is normally more productive than a phone call but you might try the latter to see.
 
Correct. But since the EVSE is a "continuous load" per the NEC's definition, you calculate it as if it was 125% the actual draw, so you calculate it as 15 amps. So therefore you are at 100% of the circuits rated capacity. Per code, nothing else can be on that circuit running at the same time. (but yes, technically you are only drawing 12 amps)

If you have a circuit full of non-continuous loads then you are allowed to take it all the way to 15 amps. You are also allowed combinations of loads - like you could have 4 amps of continuous loads (calculated as 5 amps) plus 10 amps of noncontinuous loads.

No to mention this assumes the circuit is healthy and not old, worn or with poor breakers which on continuous loads can overheat. This is exactly why it is recommended to have a new or inspected circuit. No to mention any janky wiring from the local handyman. EVSEs are relatively new and many circuits are not up to par for this use, this is just a reality of the onset of EVs.
 
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"Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)"

Where exactly does the OP stae the 125 NEMA 5-15-P plug is existing?

Please, there s absolutely NO REASON to get snarky. Simply stae where you think I've erred and move on. I don't


I have read and reread the OP's post. Nothing to me states they were talking of using a already existing outlet. But IF that's what they meant, of course no permit is needed the plugin to an existing outlet. That is the point of the outlet! Why would anyone even ask, just plug in to it!

I agree, without the OP's clarification of the intent, it's pointless to proceed. Thanks all.

Here are a few descriptions of the plug the OP wants to use to charge. As you can see it is a typical household receptacle of which there many millions in and around US buildings. There have been a lot of good points made by other commenters the OP should at minimum determine or have determined for him what other receptacles occupy the circuit he wants to plug into. Anyway here are a few links to this receptacle description. I am sure you can find more by googling for NEMA 5-15
NEMA 5-15 receptacle description
NEMA connector - Wikipedia
 
I would forward your local jurisdiction’s laws on constructive eviction to her.

She’s telling you you cannot use outlets in your home. That’s not a full constructive eviction (like removing the roof might be), but unless your lease says the wall outlets are only to be used with permission (and such a clause is likely illegal anyway unless it’s a really unusual outlet)...

She has partially evicted you. You might be able to force her to pay for the difference between your charging fees on the public chargers vs the added cost to your home electric bill, plus some fee for your time wasted every day.

That said, back when I was a renter I could always get landlords to back off by sending them printouts of local codes and cases with relevant parts highlighted... :)
And a note with contact numbers for both locak tenants and landlords rights groups.
You show them how to reach their side as a way of saying you know you are right and even their own advocacy group will back you... Just make sure that’s true first.

And unless your jurisdiction has amended common law somehow on this point, it is very likely she can’t control what you plug into an outlet on the premises you are renting...
 
PS: for Californians the PG&E rebate for having an EV will be $800 come Jan 1st.

If in Cali one could offer to pay for the cost of putting in a Nema 14-50 for the landlord, and use that rebate to offset. If you’re lease is good for long enough to make it worthwhile...
While it depends on several factors, installing an additional circuit can easily cost more than $800.
 
Common sense here- if the OP has a good relationship with landlord, which he says he does, go to her and ask her if she knows someone she trusts who is technically qualified to address her concerns. Call them and have a brief discussion, after which one hopes the third party will consider her issues and reassure her.
 
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My apologies for being blunt, but you are wrong on both counts.

An EVSE is by definition a continuous load according to NEC. For continuous loads you must calculate them as if they are 125% of their actual draw. So the Tesla will take 12 amps on a 15 amp circuit. 12 times 1.25 is 15 amps. Hence according to NEC load calculations that circuit is 100% subscribed (assuming it is 15a and not 20a). Above 80% load there is a chance your breaker will eventually blow as well during charging since they are thermal devices and are sensitive to heat. It is a long story, but standard test conditions for breakers don’t take into account that’s they are installed with adjacent breakers which are also getting hot and can impact the breaker in question.

On the comment about “no danger whatsoever” that is extremely strong language to use. There are several issues:

1. We don’t know what else is actually on that circuit. If there are other loads on that circuit then you are relying on a circuit breaker to trip when an overload happens instead of starting a fire. There are defective circuit breakers out there.
2. You are relying on the installation quality of all the components and connections in the chain. If any one of them is bad it could result in heat/arcing/fire.
3. You are also trusting that damage has not been done over the years (plug tension is low due to repeated use, etc...)

I agree that in general on modern wiring with a quality installation it *should* be safe, but I would never claim there is no danger whatsoever.

It is important for people to realize and understand that due to the massive amount of energy that EV’s need, their default behavior is to suck as much juice as possible from whatever circuit they are on so that they can charge as fast as possible. My M3 LR can suck down 11.5kw given access to a high enough amperage circuit. That is nearly triple what the next highest load in my house is and if I was using the UMC it would be the vastly highest load that was not hard wired as well.

My callout here is just that caution should be exercised. EV’s are a fantastic way to find “latent defects” in electrical wiring systems that may have existed for 20 years and nobody realized it. I would venture to guess that over time, loads on random 15a convenience circuits have gone down recently as lighting has moved nearly exclusively to LED and CFL. So EV’s are probably the only thing (except maybe a space heater) that will really push 15/20a convenience circuits hard (and heaters generally cycle on and off periodically giving the wire a chance to cool a bit).

Tesla’s do have fantastic features to attempt to detect dangerous conditions (by monitoring voltage drop during charging), but this is not foolproof.

Ironically, I feel like charging off random 15a and 20a 120v convenience receptacle circuits is more dangerous than 240v circuits since there are so many additional points of failure and because they have to charge for so many hours constantly to gain any reasonable amount of range. This also pushes them into charging overnight when the danger of a house fire is greatest since folks are sleeping. While I would not dictate my life schedule around this, my M3 charges in a little over an hour when I get home. Generally during dinner. (eventually I will change this once there is a financial incentive for me to move it off peak)



Really well stated. Our company, Sun's Free, installs ~7 to 10 Tesla circuits a week. Your comments are spot on.
 
Because the landlord probable has legitimate concerns. EV's are new and I am sure she has had tenant issues before. I would want to do everything I could to educate her in a positive constructive way.

Maybe it was a joke but to her this is a serious issue.
And what about my legitimate concern people laugh at a joke that casts Bob Lutz as willing to impersonate a female landlord because of his all consuming rage for Tesla?

Did you even stop to think about my feelings in all of this?

No, you were too busy protecting the precious landlord.... meanwhile I'm suffering the humiliation of your disapproval.
 
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And what about my legitimate concern people laugh at a joke that casts Bob Lutz as willing to impersonate a female landlord because of his all consuming rage for Tesla?

Did you even stop to think about my feelings in all of this?

No, you were too busy protecting the precious landlord.... meanwhile I'm suffering the humiliation of your disapproval.
Write something about your taste in music. I'll Disagree with that.:D
 
The Landlord is not preventing the OP from charging, she just believes that the OP needs a permit prior to being able to charge. It is up to the OP to either get a permit or satisfy the Landlord's concern that a permit is not required. There is nothing the Landlord is requesting that is against the law.

As many have suggested, my recommendation would also be to have a licensed electrician (that the Landlord approves) inspect the outlet so that the electrician can (A) confirm the wiring was done correctly and can handle the load from charging and (B) can confirm to the Landlord that a permit is not required for a plug-in mobile connector.

Having said all this, the OP has not been on TMC for two days now so he may not be reading any of these posts anymore. We might as well wait for him to resurface and give us all an update.

The title of the thread is: "Landlord won't let me charge, says I need a permit for the 125v portable charger?"

Onus should be on the landlord to have the outlet inspected and review the law.