"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

[jebinc]

This one is also interesting - This wouldn't happen with the limited Eyesight system. It saved me a few times over the years. Still more a conversation piece/gimmick than reliable.

Tesla driver mows down 11 construction cones on video and blames Autopilot - Electrek

 

[willow_hiller]

This one is also interesting - This wouldn't happen with the limited Eyesight system. It saved me a few times over the years. Still more a conversation piece/gimmick than reliable.

Tesla driver mows down 11 construction cones on video and blames Autopilot - Electrek

Tesla Automatic Emergency Breaking is not designed to prevent accidents. It's designed to mitigate the risk of injury.

Also, how distracted was that driver?? I can't imagine hitting 11 cones in a car with no safety systems before braking.

 

[jebinc]

Tesla Automatic Emergency Breaking is not designed to prevent accidents. It's designed to mitigate the risk of injury.

Also, how distracted was that driver?? I can't imagine hitting 11 cones in a car with no safety systems before braking.

Yeah, clearly that driver was not following Tesla guidance. They might have even been sleeping, for all we know. Re your comment that Tesla’s system is “designed to mitigate risk of injury” and not prevent an accident - WTF?! Imagine if those were people.... I guess you just pointed out a big difference between the Tesla system and Subaru’s limited Eyesight system, one that I was not aware of. Thanks! With Eyesight, it’s all about safety and preventing an accident. 100%.

 

[willow_hiller]

Yeah, clearly that driver was not following Tesla guidance. They might have even been sleeping, for all we know. Re your comment that Tesla’s system is “designed to mitigate risk of injury” and not prevent an accident - WTF?! Imagine if those were people.... I guess you just pointed out a big difference between the Tesla system and Subaru’s limited Eyesight system, one that I was not aware of. Thanks! With Eyesight, it’s all about safety and preventing an accident. 100%.

Here's the quote from Subaru's website on the topic: EyeSight

"The Pre-Collision Braking feature can even apply full braking force in emergency situations, helping you avoid or reduce frontal impacts."

Again, not designed to prevent all accidents. All it can do is apply full braking force, and that's all AP can do as well. When a car is going 60 MPH+, it's going to take a while to stop.

 

[jebinc]

Here's the quote from Subaru's website on the topic: EyeSight

"The Pre-Collision Braking feature can even apply full braking force in emergency situations, helping you avoid or reduce frontal impacts."

Again, not designed to prevent all accidents. All it can do is apply full braking force, and that's all AP can do as well. When a car is going 60 MPH+, it's going to take a while to stop.

Oh, I agree with that. If while careening down a road, at say100 mph, and a deer jumps out in front of you, the Eyesight System (or human) can only do the maximum stopping that the car can do by design. Equal to a human mashing the brakes. That Teslacam footage supports your earlier point as it clearly doesn’t look like full force braking was applied before, during or even immediately after, collision with the first cone!

Edit: And unlike my deer example, the Tesla in that video was dealing with (effectively) many “stationary” objects in the road that “it” was approaching at high speed... it’s cameras and radar saw them, but chose to ignore for some reason... until it was too late.

 

[jebinc]

Oh, I agree with that. If while careening down a road, at say100 mph, and a deer jumps out in front of you, the Eyesight System (or human) can only do the maximum stopping that the car can do by design. Equal to a human mashing the brakes. That Teslacam footage supports your earlier point as it clearly doesn’t look like full force braking was applied before, during or even immediately after, collision with the first cone!

Edit: And unlike my deer example, the Tesla in that video was dealing with (effectively) many “stationary” objects in the road that “it” was approaching at high speed... it’s cameras and radar saw them, but chose to ignore for some reason... until it was too late.

Typo in prior “edit” above. The parenthetical should have been (ineffective), but I’m sure most got that, even with the incorrect iPhone autocorrect!

 

[North75]

This one is also interesting - This wouldn't happen with the limited Eyesight system. It saved me a few times over the years. Still more a conversation piece/gimmick than reliable.

Tesla driver mows down 11 construction cones on video and blames Autopilot - Electrek

What do you think the Eyesight system would have done in this case? (asking earnestly) Aside from yelling at the driver to try to get him to wake up and take over, what would the appropriate course of action be?

 

[realvvk]

This one is also interesting - This wouldn't happen with the limited Eyesight system. It saved me a few times over the years. Still more a conversation piece/gimmick than reliable.

Tesla driver mows down 11 construction cones on video and blames Autopilot - Electrek

Of course this wouldn't happen with the EyeSight system -- the driver would have probably died with the EyeSight system. Because if you read the guy's comments, he fell asleep. Which would have resulted in a nasty crash in a car without Autopilot.

Look, I like Subaru. I have owned five of them, raced them, participated in engineering clinics with Subaru engineers at Subaru of America in Cherry Hill, attended autocross events where Subaru engineers brought out their WRX in the mid-90s, my wife worked for Subaru of America. But you are trying to tell us that Tesla's Autopilot is inferior. Even if you say you aren't -- you are based on your posts.

 

[North75]

I care(d) because I was surprised how ineffectual the M3 version was, and was hoping someone would tell me what I might be doing wrong, or a setting, or something. But, the posts in this thread leave me with my original thoughts. Hopefully, for the reasons I've already stated above, the M3 lane keeping "assist" will improve with future updates - as I find that feature on our Subaru's quite helpful. Of course, YMMV.

Maybe you can elaborate more on why you think Eyesight is better than the Tesla system. (I haven't driven the Subaru version of course) You noted that you thought the Subaru system reacted earlier and worked on more types of roads. I think reacting earlier isn't necessarily better for a system like this. In my opinion it should interfere the least with me driving the car and only activate at the last possible moment to correct or save me.
As far as when it works, it is always available so its hard to say what types of roads it can or can't work on. I think there is some low speed cutoff to the Tesla system, but I don't know if a hard number has been published. I prefer this as well, as you are more likely to intentionally drive over lines when going slow and the risks of going over are less. I will admit I wished Tesla did a better job of documenting how their system is intended to work. i.e. min speed, lane or centerlines need to be present, etc..
I suspect with a lot of these systems personal preference will affect how well you think its working.

 

[North75]

Of course this wouldn't happen with the EyeSight system -- the driver would have probably died with the EyeSight system. Because if you read the guy's comments, he fell asleep. Which would have resulted in a nasty crash in a car without Autopilot.

Look, I like Subaru. I have owned five of them, raced them, participated in engineering clinics with Subaru engineers at Subaru of America in Cherry Hill, attended autocross events where Subaru engineers brought out their WRX in the mid-90s, my wife worked for Subaru of America. But you are trying to tell us that Tesla's Autopilot is inferior. Even if you say you aren't -- you are based on your posts.

Actually he's not trying to compare Autopilot at all. He's comparing Eyesight to Tesla's lane keep warning/assist and emergency lane keep systems. Which I think is part of the problem. These Tesla systems are probably designed the way they are because the Tesla's also have Autopilot available.

 

[jebinc]

What do you think the Eyesight system would have done in this case? (asking earnestly) Aside from yelling at the driver to try to get him to wake up and take over, what would the appropriate course of action be?

Based on my experience with three generations of Eyesight, the brakes would have slammed on before hitting the front cone as the system was beeping and flashing red. It would not have moved left or right, just slammed on the brakes. Given these were stationary objects in front of the car, I believe if would not have hit the first cone. Had this been a deer running across the road, the system would have done the same thing, but might have hit the deer during deacceleration phase.

 

[jebinc]

Actually he's not trying to compare Autopilot at all. He's comparing Eyesight to Tesla's lane keep warning/assist and emergency lane keep systems. Which I think is part of the problem. These Tesla systems are probably designed the way they are because the Tesla's also have Autopilot available.

Yes, you're a better communicator than me, as I tried several times to explain this in so many earlier posts...
Thanks, again. Hoping the same question will not be asked again by the same person, multiple times over multiple days.

 

[willow_hiller]

Yes, you're a better communicator than me, as I tried several times to explain this in so many earlier posts...
Thanks, again. Hoping the same question will not be asked again by the same person, multiple times over multiple days.

I don't understand your purpose in trying to analyze single features in isolation. And I think that's why members of this forum are getting defensive at your question. The premise is tilted against Tesla.

Yes, it seems like Subaru has better lane keep assist. Is it a better autonomous vehicle? No, it's not. The shortcomings in LDA are more than made up for by AP.

 

[David L]

This one is also interesting - This wouldn't happen with the limited Eyesight system. It saved me a few times over the years. Still more a conversation piece/gimmick than reliable.

Tesla driver mows down 11 construction cones on video and blames Autopilot - Electrek

I can't find the reference, but I remember from my pre-purchase research for my '16 Outback that the current generation of auto-brake on Eyesight is designed to handle a max of 30mph speed delta between the car and the object it would otherwise crash into. Therefore, the best case scenario is that it would have crashed into the cones at reduced speed.

When it comes to Eyesight vs. Autopilot's ability to recognize distant objects at high speed and brake, either for emergency braking or ACC, I've had much better experiences with Autopilot. Eyesight tends approach objects at full speed, then brake hard at the last moment. Using Outback ACC in 0mph to 50mph to 0mph stop and go traffic in LA is a bit of a game of chicken. In contrast, Autopilot starting from v9 firmware starts to brake gradually from far away, although it still doesn't do so as smoothly as a good human driver. Nonetheless, it does so well enough that I almost never have to intervene.

 

[jebinc]

I don't understand your purpose in trying to analyze single features in isolation. And I think that's why members of this forum are getting defensive at your question. The premise is tilted against Tesla.

Yes, it seems like Subaru has better lane keep assist. Is it a better autonomous vehicle? No, it's not. The shortcomings in LDA are more than made up for by AP.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not titled against Tesla and tried to make that point in the original post and in some of my replies where I thought perhaps I wasn't using correctly the lane keeping assist in the M3. I am surprised, based on all the replies, that the Tesla lane keep assist is inferior (at the moment) to the limited and not exciting Subaru Eyesight LKA implantation - especially given how much is expected/promised by Telsa to exist my year end. I can make this comparison as I own both systems; many here who have pissed on the Eyesight system (titled against Subaru) don't even have any experience driving an Eyesight system.... Why is that okay?

I'm struggling to see how that's going to happen ("Feature complete FSD by year end or anywhere near year end), if today the M3 is losing to a Subaru's system (lane keeping assist functionality only). Also, please know I bet on Tesla being successful with FSD, as I prepaid $6000 for a HW3 fitted M3 (that's not titling towards Subaru). Just trying to get the facts with this thread, and not fanboy rant (not directing that at you); nothing more. As far as AP making up for the LKA shortcomings, that's true on the roads where AP will engage, and where you don't actually want to be driving the M3. I like driving my M3. Being retired, I don't find myself in bumper-to-bumper traffic to/from work anymore, where AP would shine (except if there were construction cones/barrels in the roadway) 2019.24.4 just downloaded and I here AP improvements abound. I look forward to them!

 

[jebinc]

I can't find the reference, but I remember from my pre-purchase research for my '16 Outback that the current generation of auto-brake on Eyesight is designed to handle a max of 30mph speed delta between the car and the object it would otherwise crash into. Therefore, the best case scenario is that it would have crashed into the cones at reduced speed.

When it comes to Eyesight vs. Autopilot's ability to recognize distant objects at high speed and brake, either for emergency braking or ACC, I've had much better experiences with Autopilot. Eyesight tends approach objects at full speed, then brake hard at the last moment. Using Outback ACC in 0mph to 50mph to 0mph stop and go traffic in LA is a bit of a game of chicken. In contrast, Autopilot starting from v9 firmware starts to brake gradually from far away, although it still doesn't do so as smoothly as a good human driver. Nonetheless, it does so well enough that I almost never have to intervene.

We have a 2016 and 2018, both with Eyesight, and can say I've felt the brakes slam on at 70 mph when cresting a hill only to find a backup just beyond. Of course, I might have been distracted with the radio or something at the time... - but I can tell you, that shock got my attention, and fast. What you say could be true, I don't know. I only know that system has saved me more than once! I agree, AP is better in an LA traffic situation, or on a highway - no argument at all. I was just trying to compare the rudimentary functions of AP against similar Eyesight functions; nothing more.

 

[willow_hiller]

I'm struggling to see how that's going to happen ("Feature complete FSD by year end or anywhere near year end), if today the M3 is losing to a Subaru's system (lane keeping assist functionality only).

I imagine that LDA is somewhat of an afterthought for Tesla. Similar to using steering wheel torque instead of a more advanced user attentiveness system. They're investing time in getting to L3 autonomy so LDA and tracking attention are no longer required.

 

[jebinc]

I imagine that LDA is somewhat of an afterthought for Tesla. Similar to using steering wheel torque instead of a more advanced user attentiveness system. They're investing time in getting to L3 autonomy so LDA and tracking attention are no longer required.

I think they may want to rethink that - many people prefer the engaging experience of actually driving, but like some protection should they get distracted (e.g., cell phone, radio, playing with M3 screen, etc.)

 

[willow_hiller]

I think they may want to rethink that - many people prefer the engaging experience of actually driving, but like some protection should they get distracted (e.g., cell phone, radio, playing with M3 screen, etc.)

It's controversial, but Elon Musk is all about taking unexpected risks. During Autonomy day he talked about removing the steering wheel from the car entirely. Sounds like a dystopia for people who like their fast cars, but equally could be a paradice with a lot fewer accidents.

 

[jebinc]

It's controversial, but Elon Musk is all about taking unexpected risks. During Autonomy day he talked about removing the steering wheel from the car entirely. Sounds like a dystopia for people who like their fast cars, but equally could be a paradice with a lot fewer accidents.

Tesla tries to change its forecast approach, but Elon Musk must not have gotten the memo