The gutter is the grey box below everything. Also called wiring gutters. They are much simpler than multiple conduits to every device.
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Lets see pictures of who has the most crazy blade disconnects
- Thread starter h2ofun
- Start date
I missed that too, but went back and read label.
So, far left knob type batteries. Next one over is solar. Is RSD remote solar disconnect? (Having to learn these terms. I got TEG down now
) What is the one needed for between both meters?
Close, it means Rapid Shut Down. It is all about safety for firefighters. If the clutter makes it safer I cannot complain. Remember, just shutting down solar and throwing main breaker will not shut off power to the house. The Powerwalls will just think it is power outage and energize the gateway and the load panel.
I cannot believe how many disconnects my plans I am just reviewing are showing. My wall is going to look like .....
Better than a dead firefighter. Quit complaining, its not your money anyway, correct?
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solarAddict
Member
I was thinking you probably referring to it. My installer called these "troth"/trowth? or something like that - I'm not native speaker so I was not 100% sure.
It called SMART here in MA, but it's the same - solar incentive program.
Wiring trough is another term that is used. No worries, modern language has evolved. Animals on farms drink from a similar shaped water trough without the cover.
Electrph
Member
Yes, I agree. Maybe that is a good thing, because the primary purpose of these regulations is for first responder protections. I realize we are in a transition and it is not perfect. I am confident it will get sorted out in the long term.
Yeah, that's the attitude Sunrun has. But that position is a fallacy; neither H2ofun or myself want firefighters to be harmed. We just want the designers to put in the system in a logical way so the firefighter can disarm the home rapidly without running around looking for blades all over the house. I contend all these blades are actually less safe.
Here's the side of my house that a firefighter would see when they arrive. Notice the TEG2 has no stickers.
A reasonable human being would think... Let me turn off the main breaker in the panel that has the PG&E meter. And while I'm at it, I'll throw down the big monster 200 A switch. I mean, these are the no brainer conclusions right? Then they'd see another red sticker on the other grey panel on the wall of my house. So this same person may open that up and turn off those breakers too.
So... it's safe right? WRONG. Turning off the things that are labeled with red stickers visible to the main service panel would not disarm the solar or batteries.
So maybe the firefighter reads that "CAUTION" red placard a bit more closely and actually deciphers that I have 3 batteries in the garage. So they break their way in and flip the 3 blade disconnects.
But guess what, the solar panels are still live.
The firefighter still has to go to another part of my house to find the Enphase 3C combiner, open it up, and turn off the OCPD breakers (no blade!) in there.
So, I think the right answer here is to use the Gateway 2 as a one-stop shop. The Gateway has all generation OCPD breakers in one spot. And as a bonus there's another breaker to turn off the utility power from reaching my home loads. So a firefighter who wants to safely de-energize my home completely (shut down the utility, PV-DC, PV-AC, and ESS) can do so in one place. But Sunrun absolutely refuses to label the system that way, and basically built the system as if the Gateway 2 didn't exist.
To me, putting the Gateway within line of sight of the main service panel is a no-brainer for firefighter safety. Both H2ofun and I are on board with this. If the Gateway had the right sticker placards, a firefighter could walk up to my main panel and the Gateway and make things safe without blade disconnects.
Edit: The actual PV load center (the Enphase 3C) isn't labeled on my red placard.
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Are those disconnects in your garage, 3, by the batteries? I was told code was they had to be within 3 feet of the MSP?
Technically the disconnecting means for the batteries need to be within "line of sight" of the main service panel. Which I think is 10 feet. The Contra Costa County inspector noted that the Tesla Energy Gateway 2 is actually within line of sight of my main panel, and opening it up would de-energize the batteries (and solar) from the outside. So that's all he needed to see for Fire Safety.
The 3 blade disconnects inside are because the County inspector didn't think this was safe for someone (like an electrician; not a firefighter) to work on the Powerwalls. If they remove the cover off the Powerwalls to poke around, then their buddy outside could flip on the breakers in the TEG2 and ruin the electrician's day inside. So now the electrician can flip those blade disconnects and safety do work.
I agree but technology is moving faster than the code can keep up. Before batteries, all a firefighter had to do was pull the meter and then they knew for sure the house was safe. But then someone got hit with 400 volts of DC on the roof and the code evolved into RSD. None of that was coordinated with batteries which could have been integrated with a simple cost effective big red push button, which could be wired to rapidly shut down all systems simultaneously.
Also, as you mention there is the issue of safety disconnects for maintenance workers. We see those all the time with A/C compressors. Those are inexpensive and not much bigger than junction boxes.
Yeah, there are advocates here on TMC and elsewhere that believe a big giant red button acting as a relay to switch off a bunch of circuits is the right thing. But that's definitely not code compliant.
In the meantime, I think Tesla is doing the right thing by basically making the Tesla Energy Gateway a single place to make things safe (someone just has to be aware to open it up). Maybe the Gateway 3 will simply have a big red lever on the outside instead of requiring people to open up the Gateway 2 cover.
I find it interesting because out here (in MD) they installed a single blade disconnect ("fireman's disconnect") which kills both the PWs and the solar (which has rapid shutdown devices installed.) It does not kill grid power, but it is mounted right by the meter. (And, in our area, the meters do not have outside breakers - the only way to kill power to homes from the outside is to pull the meter or, I suppose, to cut the wires.) It seems like this is a reasonable solution, and close to having a giant red button - more like a red label on the meter reminding you to hit the second button.
Something to keep in mind with the Gateway is that solution only works if the box is mounted on the exterior. Ours (which is a Gateway 1 in any case, but we would have put in the same place) is installed in our basement, along with our inverter and PWs. So it would still be necessary to place a box outside to serve as a disconnect.
And, while the fireman's disconnect is outside, inside, there are breakers for each PW and for the solar, within line of sight of the PWs and the inverter. The 200A main breaker is also nearby, within line of sight. So those should allow an electrician to make the area safe for any necessary maintenance.
Just a fun picture to cause @Vines some severe disappointment...
Neighbor up the street got his 2x Powerwalls in. He wanted the Tesla Inverter above one PW2, and the Gateway above the other PW2. You know, for symmetry. Designer said "no way" and did this instead.
But the same inspector who didn't like my install due to the whole line of sight thing was ok with this layout since all the disconnecting means were on the same wall. So this guy gets to do a clean install without any blade disconnects, while I have 3x dumb dumb levers on my wall.
Edit: I don't have a picture of it, but the external solar-only blade disconnect on the outside of the house is mounted like way up high. You can see the LB that enters this guy's garage is like at the top of the garage ceiling. Then this conduit feeds the solar inverter. That LB is basically the height of the blade disconnect is on the other side of the wall to shut off the solar array from the outside. Why are they allowed to put a solar disconnect up that high??? Gaaahhhhhhh
Neighbor up the street got his 2x Powerwalls in. He wanted the Tesla Inverter above one PW2, and the Gateway above the other PW2. You know, for symmetry. Designer said "no way" and did this instead.
But the same inspector who didn't like my install due to the whole line of sight thing was ok with this layout since all the disconnecting means were on the same wall. So this guy gets to do a clean install without any blade disconnects, while I have 3x dumb dumb levers on my wall.
Edit: I don't have a picture of it, but the external solar-only blade disconnect on the outside of the house is mounted like way up high. You can see the LB that enters this guy's garage is like at the top of the garage ceiling. Then this conduit feeds the solar inverter. That LB is basically the height of the blade disconnect is on the other side of the wall to shut off the solar array from the outside. Why are they allowed to put a solar disconnect up that high??? Gaaahhhhhhh
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zanary
Active Member
I'm surprised they allowed the Powerwall so close to a water supply for the instant water heater... He could have double staked the powerwalls as well. I tripped stacked mine, but they are of course sitting on the garage floor.
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