Let's Speculate - What will happen if FSD isn't possible on cars sold with that option?

[Drone Flyer]

I'm not seeing your point here... I paid for FSD and without paying a dime more, I'll get the new hardware for free.

Except you won't ever be able to use it because legislation doesn't allow it, nor will it be allowed for 7 to 10 years!
FSD will be for the next gen cars down the road. People who bought into it are basically paying for the research for later technology in future cars.

 

[JeffK]

Except you won't ever be able to use it because legislation doesn't allow it, nor will it be allowed for 7 to 10 years!
FSD will be for the next gen cars down the road. People who bought into it are basically paying for the research for later technology in future cars.

I don't think so. There's public pressure to fast track autonomous driving to save lives. Second, once the hardware is in place it's easy to collect data in shadow mode comparing what the human does with what the computer would have done.

Also my local laws don't allow or disallow it... If I'm behind the wheel, I'm legally responsible, but there's nothing stopping me from using a fully autonomous system as long as I'm in the driver's seat.

 

[schonelucht]

What if the regulators say that Teslas require further hardware/mechanical redundancy, etc. to okay FSD. In reply, Tesla says to AP2.0 owners that it can accomplish AP2.0 with the current hardware but the regulators won't let us do it, and we made AP2.0 FSD subject to regulatory approval, so here's your money back for those of you who paid for FSD. Then Tesla adds the further hardware/redundancy or whatever is required to comply with regulatory approval and all new owners get it.

It seems to me AP2.0 FSD owners are out of luck in this scenario given what was said them to about the caveat of regulatory approval when they bought.

Please correct me where my logic is wrong since it seems to me Tesla has an easy out of this one.

I can see jurisdictions with stricter consumer protection rules where that kind of disclaimer will not be enough to absolve Tesla entirely of their responsibility. Basically the whole of Europe.

 

[znino]

I have an early 2017 Model S with EAP. Hardware is therefore AP2. I did not purchase the FSD option, but, at the time, the car was marketed as having all the hardware necessary to perform FSD and other advanced features. I also seem to remember that off ramp to on ramp functionality was promised as part of this new Ehanced Autopilot (as opposed to AP1 that would not ever do this).

In fall 2017, they started building AP2.5 hardware into the cars and I also seem to remember Elon tweets and statements that AP2.0 hardware would be upgraded to 2.5 hardware in the future, at no cost to those that had the 2.0 hardware.

Now I am seeing things in version 9 like Dash cam video not working on 2.0 hardware and upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.

Does anyone have the same recollections as me about us 2.0 owners being told we would get a free upgrade to the 2.5HW? and that the off ramp to on ramp feature was part of what we paid for with EAP 2.0?

Im feeling like all that is being skirted by Tesla and quietly placed aside and that 2.5HW will be required for many things that 2.0 was supposed to be capable of.

 

[BigD0g]

I have an early 2017 Model S with EAP. Hardware is therefore AP2. I did not purchase the FSD option, but, at the time, the car was marketed as having all the hardware necessary to perform FSD and other advanced features. I also seem to remember that off ramp to on ramp functionality was promised as part of this new Ehanced Autopilot (as opposed to AP1 that would not ever do this).

In fall 2017, they started building AP2.5 hardware into the cars and I also seem to remember Elon tweets and statements that AP2.0 hardware would be upgraded to 2.5 hardware in the future, at no cost to those that had the 2.0 hardware.

Now I am seeing things in version 9 like Dash cam video not working on 2.0 hardware and upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.

Does anyone have the same recollections as me about us 2.0 owners being told we would get a free upgrade to the 2.5HW? and that the off ramp to on ramp feature was part of what we paid for with EAP 2.0?

Im feeling like all that is being skirted by Tesla and quietly placed aside and that 2.5HW will be required for many things that 2.0 was supposed to be capable of.

No, your recollection is incorrect, they said 2.5 was a minor upgrade and “if” it was needed a hardware upgrade would be given. That hw upgrade seems like it’s going to be hw3 because 2.5 isn’t enough either.

 

[znino]

No, your recollection is incorrect, they said 2.5 was a minor upgrade and “if” it was needed a hardware upgrade would be given. That hw upgrade seems like it’s going to be hw3 because 2.5 isn’t enough either.

So what then? They will upgrade AP2.0 cars to AP3.0? There is no question that people who bought AP2.0 cars were told black on white that this HW would support FSD. Some even bought the option so they would need to somehow accommodate those buyers at the very least.

And what about off ramp to on ramp. That was touted as an Enhanced Autopilot feature (one of the improvements over AP1 HW). Now they are talking about it as if you need FSD for it to work.

 

[MP3Mike]

No, your recollection is incorrect, they said 2.5 was a minor upgrade and “if” it was needed a hardware upgrade would be given. That hw upgrade seems like it’s going to be hw3 because 2.5 isn’t enough either.

And further he said that the AP2/AP2.5 hardware was enough for EAP, that only FSD would need the upgrade.

 

[MP3Mike]

Now I am seeing things in version 9 like Dash cam video not working on 2.0 hardware and upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.

I haven't seen anything saying that. Where are you seeing that Tesla has said that?

As far as the dashcam feature, that was never promised for any specific hardware level, so they don't need to upgrade your hardware for that.

 

[d21mike]

I have an early 2017 Model S with EAP. Hardware is therefore AP2. I did not purchase the FSD option, but, at the time, the car was marketed as having all the hardware necessary to perform FSD and other advanced features. I also seem to remember that off ramp to on ramp functionality was promised as part of this new Ehanced Autopilot (as opposed to AP1 that would not ever do this).

In fall 2017, they started building AP2.5 hardware into the cars and I also seem to remember Elon tweets and statements that AP2.0 hardware would be upgraded to 2.5 hardware in the future, at no cost to those that had the 2.0 hardware.

Now I am seeing things in version 9 like Dash cam video not working on 2.0 hardware and upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.

Does anyone have the same recollections as me about us 2.0 owners being told we would get a free upgrade to the 2.5HW? and that the off ramp to on ramp feature was part of what we paid for with EAP 2.0?

Im feeling like all that is being skirted by Tesla and quietly placed aside and that 2.5HW will be required for many things that 2.0 was supposed to be capable of.

I remember the same thing about going from 2.0 to 2.5 if needed for FSD but only if you purchased FSD. Recently when they talked about 3.0 they indicated that anyone that purchased FSD would get 3.0 "if needed to support FSD". However, I do not believe he said anything about Dash Cam support so you might have a problem there.

Regarding the EAP Feature off ramp to on ramp. I do not remember seeing it will only work on cars with 2.5 or later. Maybe you have a source for that?

On a side note: I got my car (built in Sept 2017). When I took my test drive the sales guy ask if I was ready to buy and I said yes (already watch many many youtube videos and read here) so only just needed a test drive. So I decided to configure right then. He then did a search for my specs to see if there was an inventory car. I said well it was important to me to have 2.5 hardware that I had been reading about (on here). He said that there was ABSOLUTELY no difference. I did not want to create a big argument but I said you mean they are different but maybe they work exactly the same (giving him an out) and he replied NO I mean they are exactly the same. Anyway, I did not get an inventory car and got HW 2.5.

 

[znino]

I haven't seen anything saying that. Where are you seeing that Tesla has said that?

As far as the dashcam feature, that was never promised for any specific hardware level, so they don't need to upgrade your hardware for that.

Where am I seeing that Tesla said that the off ramp to on ramp was part of EAP and not FSD? On the website when I purchased the car. It was one of the additional things that EAP with HW 2.0 could do that HW 1.0 couldn't. Attaching a screen shot of the learn more page on EAP from Jan 19, 2017, when only AP2.0 was being built. I bought EAP 2.0 knowing this. I had a model S with AP1.0 before and know very well what they were changing. Full disclosure, I also work for Tesla and get regular trainings in what and what is not included in options etc. EAP 2.0 in Jan 2017 was touted as being able to do a lot more stuff than with HW 1.0 (not talking about FSD capabilities here).

 

[MP3Mike]

Where am I seeing that Tesla said that the off ramp to on ramp was part of EAP and not FSD?

No, the portion I quoted "upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.". Where you are getting your information that the EAP on-ramp to off-ramp feature is not going to be supported on AP2 cars? (There is no off-ramp to on-ramp feature as driving backwards on the free is illegal. )

 

[znino]

I remember the same thing about going from 2.0 to 2.5 if needed for FSD but only if you purchased FSD. Recently when they talked about 3.0 they indicated that anyone that purchased FSD would get 3.0 "if needed to support FSD". However, I do not believe he said anything about Dash Cam support so you might have a problem there.

Regarding the EAP Feature off ramp to on ramp. I do not remember seeing it will only work on cars with 2.5 or later. Maybe you have a source for that?

On a side note: I got my car (built in Sept 2017). When I took my test drive the sales guy ask if I was ready to buy and I said yes (already watch many many youtube videos and read here) so only just needed a test drive. So I decided to configure right then. He then did a search for my specs to see if there was an inventory car. I said well it was important to me to have 2.5 hardware that I had been reading about (on here). He said that there was ABSOLUTELY no difference. I did not want to create a big argument but I said you mean they are different but maybe they work exactly the same (giving him an out) and he replied NO I mean they are exactly the same. Anyway, I did not get an inventory car and got HW 2.5.

I understand that the dash cam feature was never promised (still dont really see why it wouldn't be possible with 2.0 but anyways).

Yes, I didn't purchase FSD but i am supposed to be able to purchase it at any time in the future. So would they upgrade my HW if I decide to purchase it?

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes, I didn't purchase FSD but i am supposed to be able to purchase it at any time in the future. So would they upgrade my HW if I decide to purchase it?

That is what they have said. Anyone that has paid for FSD would get the hardware upgrade if it was necessary.

BTW: I still think they will raise the price for FSD once they actually release it.

 

[znino]

No, the portion I quoted "upcoming off ramp to on ramp functions also needing 2.5HW.". Where you are getting your information that the EAP on-ramp to off-ramp feature is not going to be supported on AP2 cars? (There is no off-ramp to on-ramp feature as driving backwards on the free is illegal. )

Maybe I am missing something. Dont you take an off ramp from the highway you are on, followed by an on ramp to another highway when you transition from one highway to another as is described in the feature that is supposed to come? How is that driving backwards?

 

[d21mike]

I understand that the dash cam feature was never promised (still dont really see why it wouldn't be possible with 2.0 but anyways).

Yes, I didn't purchase FSD but i am supposed to be able to purchase it at any time in the future. So would they upgrade my HW if I decide to purchase it?

Yes. And they even said if you purchased your car back when the price was $4,000 (after purchase) you could still upgrade for that price. New customers will need to pay $5,000 after purchase. There was some discussion about this not showing $4,000 on the older customers account page but I think they were going to fix that. You may want to review your account page to see if still a $4,000 after purchase upgrade. Also, not sure they said anything about how long that would last. I would assume until after FSD is actually released.

That is why some of us that purchased FSD keep saying we will probably at least get an upgrade to HW 3.0 (after all the waiting) because it will most likely be needed for FSD. But this v9 with on ramp to off ramp is very impressive with our current hardware (looking at the videos of those that rooted their cars).

 

[MP3Mike]

Maybe I am missing something. Dont you take an off ramp from the highway you are on, followed by an on ramp to another highway when you transition from one highway to another as is described in the feature that is supposed to come? How is that driving backwards?

You take an on-ramp to get on the freeway, EAP takes over and gets you to the off-ramp closest to your destination where it hands control fully back to you. (EAP will handle the interchanges between freeways.)

 

[znino]

You take an on-ramp to get on the freeway, EAP takes over and gets you to the off-ramp where it hands control back to you.

To me the 'getting on the highway, driving and getting off the freeway' is another scenario (one that was also promised with AP2.0).

When I read, however, 'transition from one freeway to another' that tells me the car is doing the driving to get off freeway one and get onto freeway two (it would therefore take the offramp, followed by the onramp of the second freeway. Anyway, no big deal for this. I just hope that they honor their pledges to upgrade people who take FSD as a future upgrade on their previous HW that was touted as being FSD capable.

 

[MP3Mike]

When I read, however, 'transition from one freeway to another' that tells me the car is doing the driving to get off freeway one and get onto freeway two (it would therefore take the offramp, followed by the onramp of the second freeway.

I'm pretty sure those are called interchanges not a combination an off-ramp and on-ramp and that "on/off ramps" are connecting normal streets to freeways.

 

[znino]

I'm pretty sure those are called interchanges not a combination an off-ramp and on-ramp and that "on/off ramps" are connecting normal streets to freeways.

You are right. But so how do you interpret when they say 'transition from one freeway to another'. That was listed as an EAP feature in late 2016 with AP2.0 hw (see screenshot)

 

[MP3Mike]

You are right. But so how do you interpret when they say 'transition from one freeway to another'. That was listed as an EAP feature in late 2016 with AP2.0 hw (see screenshot)

That would be the "on-ramp to off-ramp" functionality. Or what they are now appear to be calling "Navigate on Autopilot" which they now describe as:

Our most advanced Autopilot feature ever, Navigate on Autopilot is an active guidance feature that, with driver supervision, guides a car from a highway’s on-ramp to off-ramp, including suggesting lane changes, navigating highway interchanges and taking exits.

The "with driver supervision" is the gotcha there. You won't get hands-off without FSD on any hardware.