Nope, not the same 60 Minutes. The Musk interview was from the Australian 60 Minutes.
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Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Andyw2100
- Start date
Nope, not the same 60 Minutes. The Musk interview was from the Australian 60 Minutes.
Actually Andy I believe it does in the last sentence (and even compared to the 70D and 85D), but there is no admittance in the statement:
"With the P85D the combined motor shaft power can often exceed the battery electrical horsepower available."
Yes, - so in my mind the HP discussion is over as JB has admitted it so clearly. You can always discuss numbers from now on, but we all know the answer. I am happy that it has finally come so far, but sorry that we had to bring it all out to make Tesla admit.
In my mind now there remains only the question of 1) How Tesla will make this very clear on their configurator, so as to not fool new buyers and 2) how to compensate those that purchased under false pretence.
In my mind now there remains only the question of 1) How Tesla will make this very clear on their configurator, so as to not fool new buyers and 2) how to compensate those that purchased under false pretence.
Unfortunately it is not clear at all
(No doubt lawyers have proof read the blog, to prevent option 2.)For it to be a true admission it would say:
Saying that maybe if you have the doors open, and the trunk up, maybe like a VW you can get the right figures with some sort of nanosecond burst above the fuse limits.... maybe these sort of "non real world" conditions are what JB is referring to ?
JB's rather convoluted blog post was no doubt carefully lawyered-up. They've had months to get it "just right". What's NOT included is answers to two relevant questions:
1). While "the combined motor shaft power can often (emphasis added) exceed the battery electrical horsepower available", is there ever any circumstance when it does not? I.e. Does the car ever deliver the "motor power" presented as representing the cars performance? Evidence in the public domain suggests it does not. In that case shouldn't we just come right out and clarify that the car actually delivers 691 unicorn-power. While 691up is certainly impressive, no one would be confused into making false comparisons to other vehicles measured in hp.
2). How many horse-power does the car actually develop? Where measured, and under what conditions?
Progress being made ... we're almost there ... let's hear from JB the engineer, not JB the marketer-supervised-by-lawyers ...
I find it ridiculous, that blog's headline is
"Tesla All Wheel Drive (Dual Motor) Power and Torque Specifications"
and it still doesn't tell the actual hp number. JB wrote large blog post about P85D's hp-rating, but did not tell us, what it is.
that's because it doesn't have horsepower. it's an electric vehicle. blog post was very clear to me. 691hp doesn't mean anything other than its the addition of the two motor "EV hp" (which doesn't really exist). can't get much simpler and straightforward than that. you're trying to compare apples to oranges. the combined hp number is completely irrelevant and you can't apply an ICE car mindset to an EV. 691HP for an ICE != 691 HP for a dual motor single gear EV. completely different profiles. as to "missing hp from 70 to 90mph" its theres no multi gear transmission so putting your "EV hat" on should tell you that yes no matter what "HP" number you're going to give it, without a multigear transmission the EV isn't going to match the performance of an ICE equivalent at those speeds. I wish this subject would just die.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
YBD,
Not going to happen as long as people do not take responsibility for for knowing BeVs derive power from the battery which is turned into movement by motors. These people will always be stuck on the FACT that the battery can not support both motors at maximum output at the exact same time and that Tesla is playing fast and loose when they quote motor horsepower without mention of peak battery power.
The performance of the system is not relevant to these people; they want to feel slighted and, gosh darn it, they are going to feel slighted. The performance of the system is the only thing that matters to me.
Not going to happen as long as people do not take responsibility for for knowing BeVs derive power from the battery which is turned into movement by motors. These people will always be stuck on the FACT that the battery can not support both motors at maximum output at the exact same time and that Tesla is playing fast and loose when they quote motor horsepower without mention of peak battery power.
The performance of the system is not relevant to these people; they want to feel slighted and, gosh darn it, they are going to feel slighted. The performance of the system is the only thing that matters to me.
Do P85D's electric motors produce kinetic energy? I believe so. If they do produce kinetic energy, it can be easily measured. The unit of that energy can be kWs, if Tesla does not want to use hp as a unit. It really is that simple.
Tesla tell us how many kws P85D's motors produce in car!
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Agree. Take this as one of life's little learning lessons. Tesla threw out an unrealistic number on a new system that people weren't familiar with and wasn't clearly defined by Tesla. I too thought that it should produce somewhere close to 691hp although the actual number didn't matter to me after actually driving the car. The P85D really is insane with its acceleration and would be happy to own such a car. Realize that not everyone feels that way and wants justice for what they see as malice and evil intent by Tesla. Sometimes moving on is the less stressful way to go about things if you can't change it.
Exactly. There's no denying that the P85D battery will not simultaneously drive both motors at maximum power. Tesla confirmed it. Sure Tesla played a bit loose with the numbers for marketing purposes, but that's hardly unique to Tesla. The Hellcat will only hit 700 Hp under very specific circumstances and I doubt that many owners will ever achieve it.
The P85D performs as well or better than that 700HP rated Hellcat over the 1/4 mile or 0-60. That's certainly more than good enough for my purposes.
There will always be a small number of people who can't help but obsess over the numbers and I guess we can't really fault them for doing it because technically they're correct. I'd suggest that they don't take it so seriously but that will fall on deaf ears.
TBH the performance isn't why I feel slighted (I don't have a P85D)
It's about expectation management. I feel Tesla should be whiter than white, they have an astounding product and excessive hyperbole hurts them long term.
If they'd said it was 550bhp from day one, could hit 0-60 in 3.5, etc. etc. we ALL would have thought this a fantastic car. They would have sold just as many, and none of this would have happened.
As it stands I can't help get the feeling they have upset loyal customers, then had their hand forced to release the L upgrade (further upsetting those wanting "top of the line"). This in turn ties their hands on product release timing, as I can't see them squeezing any more out of the platform. They could have kept their powder dry for use next year to bolster Model S sales in light of the X.
All for what? A number which on it's own is worthless. (The weight, the gearing, the Cd, the ..... all combine to the overall "system" perfomance)
We've been used to poor expectation management with respect to timing, just never product descriptions before. This is why as someone who wishes Tesla to succeed, I find the whole thing rather frustrating, and I hope at least the letter shows that to senior management.
I can't see that you will ever get that. If this was a simple water cooler discussion about the means by which the power was specified, and other potential means for standardizing such measurements in EVs then perhaps that might happen. But once people have sent pseudo-legal letters to Tesla demanding very costly restitution, they really have no choice but to respond in kind.
Sadly, this is the start of the transition from Tesla, the company run by engineers, to Tesla, the company run by finance, legal and marketing types. It's an inevitable transition that the company must make because we, the customer, force them to. I can imagine that it's very frustrating for the engineers (like Elon and JB) who are fundamentally interested in building a great product.
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I stand corrected. But I stand behind my central point. You need some very specific circumstances for an ICE to meet it's peak spec and few owners will ever see it, as various youtube videos have demonstrated. The P85D performs as I expected it to. It's more than good enough for me.
Maybe it's more subtle and it's Tesla in it's transition away from George Blankenship
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