Letter to Mr. Musk from a 1-day old outdated Model S owner

[Canuck]

Outdated is the wrong term. Obsolete is also wrong. These two words are thrown around quite a bit on TMC, I'm assuming because people don't understand their definition.

ob·so·lete
adjective
1. no longer produced or used; out of date.
synonyms: outdated, out of date, outmoded, old-fashioned, démodé, passé, out of fashion; More


I underlined "or" because it is not conjunctive. The word is not "and", it is "or". So as long as product is no longer produced it is obsolete regardless of the fact that it still may be used, and be a very good product. Once a product is no longer produced it is obsolete.

AP1.0 became obsolete and out of date on 10/19/2016. Right terms.

 

[ohmman]

ob·so·lete
adjective
1. no longer produced or used; out of date.
synonyms: outdated, out of date, outmoded, old-fashioned, démodé, passé, out of fashion; More


I underline "or" because it is not conjunctive. The word is not "and", it is "or". So as long as product is no longer produced it is obsolete regardless of the fact that it still may be used, and be a very good product. Once a product is no used it is obsolete despite the fact that it is still in used.

AP1.0 became obsolete on 10/19/2016. Right term.

I'd love to concede to you, because I respect you. But we can argue sources on this.

Webster says:

OBSOLETE
1.
a: No longer in use or no longer useful.
b: Of a kind or style no longer current.

Seems we can both argue this, but I get the "a" definition. (FWIW, definition 2 is regarding biology).

Oxford says:

No longer produced or used; out of date.

‘the disposal of old and obsolete machinery’

‘the phrase was obsolete after 1625’

(Edit: I was saying I was right here, but realized I quoted your exact definition. Darn you Canadians!)

OK, So we both have an argument, and mine is weaker?

 

[Canuck]

OK, So we both have an argument, and mine is weaker?

I majored in English but you probably can't tell when I post here after drinking a few beer. Unfortunately, obsolete has negative connotations attached to it, which is unfortunate for a word that serves a really good purpose. We have no other word to concisely communicate when something is no longer made.

Is the VCR obsolete? Of course, you'd probably say, but in fact it was not until July 2016 that it "officially" became obsolete according to the correct use of that term, since it was no longer produced:

The videocassette recorder that revolutionized home entertainment by allowing television audiences to capture their favorite shows on tape and watch them at their leisure will die later this month after a decade-long battle with obsolescence. It is roughly 60 years old.

Oxford's definition, Weird Canadian Ed., is the correct one. According to Merriam-Webster, all I have to do is plug in my old 8-track player, and listen to my old 8-track Elvis tape, and it's no longer obsolete since it meets their criteria:

"a: No longer in use or no longer useful."

It's no wonder the Brits are so offended at what you Americans did to their language...

 

[ohmman]

It's no wonder the Brits are so offended at what you American's did to their language...

I know, we even removed apostrophes from pluralization! ;-)

 

[MXWing]

I really don't think 'obsolete' can be thrown at any car and definitely not at a pre-AP2 Tesla.

Overwhelming majority of cars are ICE, can get from point A to point B and can be refueled and serviced from millions of locations.

I would assume that any Tesla owner has generally been driving a car manually for 20+ years so I don't get why the world is over for those who already own a car better than 99.9999 of what is out there and can still be driven 'manually' like everything else they have ever owned.

 

[Canuck]

I know, we even removed apostrophes from pluralization! ;-)

It's the beer!

Damn and you immortalized it in a quote! I thought the new one hour rule for editing was bad but you locked it down tight in that quote! I hate those mistakes -- just when I had the upper hand with you in argument.

It must be my karma. I need to learn to be nicer.

(Or maybe just proof-read better before posting instead.)

 

[Roger_wilco]

I was very happy and proud when I bought my 55 inches samsung smart tv, back in 2012.

Next year, my smart tv was looking dumb comparing to new models features.

This year, they removed skype and now my tv camera (reason of great cost at buying) is completely useless (a decision from producers). And its smart features are not looking any smart, anymore. Basically, its just a tv now.

But still, I really enjoy watching tv on big screen. Because "my" primary reason of purchase was the size of it. Yes there are even bigger curvier whatever screens are available now, but I am still very happy with it.

What was your primary reason?

Did you want to have a self driving car in the first place or an ultra luxury electric car not even available to the rest of the world, since tesla owners are lucky 0.001% ?

Enjoy your car, instead of locking to an unhappiness target which may easily fadeout in near future for many different reasons.

 

[Shumdit]

Ok thanks.

I don't like what happened - not to myself, but in general. I'm not upset. I'm not losing sleep. I'm ok folks. I'm not having a heart attack. Nothing of the kind. Amidst the personal attacks and insults...I'm ok.

I just don't like what Tesla did concerning AP.

I'm ok. no problems. Feel free to continue to question my intelligence or whatever you have to do.

I'm outta here.

Then why did you reply 4 times in this thread after you were "outta here"? Really it seems you came to find sympathy for a poor decision you made based on how important resale is for you and when you did not get it, you started to go off the rails a bit. Comparing owning an AP1.0 to being women in an oppressive society or being a Slave in Antebellum times. Then you compared your self or your plight to what Jesus experienced. Sorry man, I understand your viewpoint about the AP1.0 (even though I disagree with it) but the other stuff and the "outta here/don't care comments just tell me you are kinda a sore loser. That's a trait of narcissism which is what I felt a lot of the AP1.0 people who just missed AP2.0 showed traits of. It's ok to be disappointed. It's not OK to blame Tesla for improving their product.

 

[brianman]

We have no other word to concisely communicate when something is no longer made.

Discontinued.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Then why did you reply 4 times in this thread after you were "outta here"? Really it seems you came to find sympathy for a poor decision you made based on how important resale is for you and when you did not get it, you started to go off the rails a bit. Comparing owning an AP1.0 to being women in an oppressive society or being a Slave in Antebellum times. Then you compared your self or your plight to what Jesus experienced. Sorry man, I understand your viewpoint about the AP1.0 (even though I disagree with it) but the other stuff and the "outta here/don't care comments just tell me you are kinda a sore loser. That's a trait of narcissism which is what I felt a lot of the AP1.0 people who just missed AP2.0 showed traits of. It's ok to be disappointed. It's not OK to blame Tesla for improving their product.

I replied because I'm done talking about the topic. There are many people who have personally insulted me in this thread and that's fine, I know that's supported and allowed toward me.

What an assupmption you just made. It seems as though........ LOL. Keep=em-comin.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Maybe this was covered in the previous 20 pages and I missed it, but what are people who are done with Tesla going to go to? A pre-AP Model S is still a better car than a BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, or Porsche. AP but pre Tesla-Vision Model S's and X's more so. There's a reason that AP (pre Tesla Vision) Model S's have decimated sales of their competition. That some now come with Tesla Vision doesn't change that. Pre TV Model S's and X's are still better than all of the rest.

Yes, there's a bit of value loss when Tesla does a major update and it stings a bit when that comes shortly after purchase. But think about who will want to pay very much for a used luxury ICE in 2020? A 2016 AP Model S will still be a great BEV in 2020 but a 2016 BMW 7-series will be an antiquated ICE.

 

[dsm363]

It wasn't 'advertised' but Elon has talked about it in the past and something that was coming. Almost everyone thought that was at least 2017 sometime though.
Elon Musk on Tesla fully autonomous car: ‘What we’ve got will blow people’s minds, it blows my mind… it’ll come sooner than people think’

 

[BobinBoulder]

To be upset is completely understandable. Demanding a refund/retro fit is not.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a PATH to upgrade (even at a cost to the consumer). Only reason I say so is that like many, I PAID to be a BETA tester for Tesla. This is unprecedented, to say the least. I've been in IT for a LONG time never paid to beta test anything for anyone.

I would think that since we provide a value to Tesla by allowing them to collect all that data that they are now leveraging to perfect (or at least IMPROVE) their product, we should be provided a path to make use of that information data in OUR cars at a reasonable cost.

I know... people in Hell want Ice water.... doesn't mean they're going to get it. I'm just saying, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for an upgrade path at cost.

 

[ohmman]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a PATH to upgrade (even at a cost to the consumer). Only reason I say so is that like many, I PAID to be a BETA tester for Tesla. This is unprecedented, to say the least. I've been in IT for a LONG time never paid to beta test anything for anyone.

I would think that since we provide a value to Tesla by allowing them to collect all that data that they are now leveraging to perfect (or at least IMPROVE) their product, we should be provided a path to make use of that information data in OUR cars at a reasonable cost.

I know... people in Hell want Ice water.... doesn't mean they're going to get it. I'm just saying, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for an upgrade path at cost.

So for those who bought an original iPhone, from which feedback was used to improve later iterations - should they have received an upgrade path at cost to the next model? And then again to the next and next?

You use the term beta, and maybe that's talking about the Autopilot "beta" moniker, but I think Elon addressed why that's there. I think it was a poor choice of words to describe what Tesla was trying to convey.

I would argue that it's unreasonable to expect an upgrade at cost, or even to have one available at a high cost. You could argue that Tesla should do a better job supporting third party installers and service personnel on their vehicles, who would in turn offer this upgrade at cost plus their markup. To me that's a more reasonable argument. Tesla doesn't have Service Center time slices to fit in non-maintenance work. At least not around me.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a PATH to upgrade (even at a cost to the consumer). Only reason I say so is that like many, I PAID to be a BETA tester for Tesla. This is unprecedented, to say the least. I've been in IT for a LONG time never paid to beta test anything for anyone.

I would think that since we provide a value to Tesla by allowing them to collect all that data that they are now leveraging to perfect (or at least IMPROVE) their product, we should be provided a path to make use of that information data in OUR cars at a reasonable cost.

I know... people in Hell want Ice water.... doesn't mean they're going to get it. I'm just saying, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for an upgrade path at cost.

Unless you are in the EAP (the actual beta testers for Tesla), you aren't really being a beta tester in the strict sense of the word. And that program comes with the perk of being the first to try new software from Tesla. Like ohmman says, if you are talking about "Beta" as Tesla terms it, it's just the same as the feedback programs all software developers use. The perk you get is the data gathered is used to improve AP accuracy, which is something you benefit from without any new hardware.

As for "at cost" upgrades, I'm not sure people would be prepared to pay that cost (see parking sensors). There's also the upfront engineering/regulatory/liability/warranty costs that Tesla has to pay which is far better spent on getting Model 3 out on time. I believe some people bring out examples of the DIY types doing retrofits, but the death of the "comma one" shows it's not so trivial for an automaker given the regulatory hurdles.
George Hotz cancels his Tesla Autopilot-like ‘comma one’ after request from NHTSA

 

[ElectricTundra]

To do such an upgrade you'd need a CPU, Sensors, and a bit of wiring harness. Probably not an unreasonable cost, maybe $5k assuming they can make enough harnesses to be economical. Installation? Ouch. How much of the car would have to be disassembled to fit in the new harness (and is there even room in some of the channels?)? Then all of the sensors installed. then tested, put back together, and tested again. Oh, and a few new interior and exterior panels along the way.

All said and done I'd guess $40-50k to go from AP to Tesla Vision. Might be a tad less expensive to sell old car and buy new.

 

[3Victoria]

Even at cost, an upgrade is likely not a good choice as it would be +++expensive, and upgrading to a new car would be more cost effective, even with the loss of value of the original car. (Elon said it was the equivalent of a spinal transplant.)

 

[Canuck]

Discontinued.

Is turning a word into it's negative by adding "dis" as concise as it's own word: "obsolete"?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Is turning a word into it's negative by adding "dis" as concise as it's own word: "obsolete"?

I'm sure you noticed that "obsolete" has an embedded negative connotation in colloquial usage (basically used interchangeably with "outdated"). And as pointed out before, "obsolete" in American English seems to be for something no longer in use rather than than something no longer produced (and even in British English it is for no longer in use or produced).

"Discontinued" seems more neutral and more accurate in this context, since it is typically used to describe a product that is no longer in production or for sale, not simply something not in use.

 

[Shumdit]

I replied because I'm done talking about the topic. There are many people who have personally insulted me in this thread and that's fine, I know that's supported and allowed toward me.

What an assupmption you just made. It seems as though........ LOL. Keep=em-comin.

What assumption did I make pray tell?