TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Life on a 110 Outlet. My thoughts.

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by brutewolf, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. brutewolf

    brutewolf Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    My HPWC died recently, just as a friend was taking delivery of a Model S. So I've had to wait over six weeks for a new (free) HPWC to arrive. I have a 30 mile commute plus errands in the evening, and I'll get 3-4 mph off the 110. My 90D now gives 251 miles at 90%.

    This has been way easier than I expected.

    I've had to go to a Level 2 charger maybe once a week. I've used the local supercharger twice for road trips. My new HPWC arrives tomorrow, but it's been less stressful than I expected.

    My big concern is, that as more Teslas are on the road, more people are going to opt for 110 charging at home to avoid the cost of an electrician, putting a further strain on the Supercharger network.

    Does anyone know if this is a trend for Model 3 buyers? I know apartment dwellers may be forced to using urban chargers. I wonder how many homeowners are doing the same thing. Any data?
     
  2. SSedan

    SSedan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    744
    Location:
    Greenville Wisconsin
    I think one part of the equation you are not considering is not all cars have unlimited free supercharging.

    There is a thread on Tesla's own forum where they are talking about reusing wiring at a Condo and swapping the breaker and outlet to 240volt 6-15 good for 11miles on a M3, 7 on MS 5 for a MX.
    If it is 12gauge could do 6-20 outlet and get 15/11/8miles depending on which vehicle.

    Bet the average person can do that swap themselves and be in all of $70 including the adapter. Be a lot cheaper than getting a coffee or meal once twice a week while supercharging.
     
    • Like x 2
  3. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    Location:
    United States
    Yep. A HPWC is AWESOME, a 14-50 is great... but all most people really need is L2 even if it's only 12A and any electrician should be able to convert a NEMA 5-15 outlet to a 6-20. Even 208v @ 12A is ~2.5kW. Can't get a full charge overnight but it's enough to recover from a ~90 mile commute.
     
  4. ewoodrick

    ewoodrick Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,090
    Location:
    Buford, GA
    Yes, it is amazing how many people fight the range anxiety by putting in the biggest, baddest charging solution available, when for the vast majority of people, 110V is a great solution. The battery is getting a slow charge, which by most standards is the best way to do it.
    In general, you only need enough charging to offset your daily commute. If additional charging is needed on the weekend, that when you can use the other chargers, dependent on your location.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  5. Rockster

    Rockster Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    McKinney, TX
    Certainly charging at 110 can be suitable for many people; however, one of the problems with charging at 110 is that a higher percentage of the charging current is wasted as heat loss. At some point, you've wasted more energy in charging loss than the cost of a NEMA 14-50 might have been.

    Someone can probably chime in and quantify the comparison in charging loss between 110V/12A and 240V/40A charging.
     
    • Like x 3
  6. SSedan

    SSedan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    744
    Location:
    Greenville Wisconsin
    Without doing the math my understanding is there is 400watts of static overhead when charging.

    Far as savings it will depend on a lot of factors, if it is warm enough that high amperage charging causes the battery to need cooling that would be wasteful. In my case near Green Bay a 30amp 240volt outlet seems a bit small to deal with battery warming, charging, interior warming. Morning warmup of battery and interior can actually consume a few miles while plugged in and winter energy use doubles with a short commute.

    Wall charger is on the way, will likely install at 60-80amp but set the car to 20-30 in summer and maybe 50 in winter.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    Location:
    United States
    ~10%. And if it's below freezing 110v/12A will barely keep the pack warm enough to charge so you won't get much if anything and ~100% of the energy be expended just keeping the pack warm... ~240v is definitely worth the upgrade. 'Need' is a strong word and it's better than nothing but you SHOULD definitely have L2 at home...
     
  8. brutewolf

    brutewolf Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    I love my dual charger, as I’ll occasionally make a 200 mile trip and need a quick charge to get me around town for the evening.

    But this experience has definitely taught me I don’t need 80amps all the time.

    Is it possible that running 80 amps possibly led to the shortened life span for my first HPWC?
     
  9. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,518
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    We moved from AZ to OH just over a year ago. I had a NEMA 14-50 in AZ, and planned to get an HPWC in the new house. But I still haven't had an electrician out to do the wiring/install -- the garage in OH has 5-20 outlets, and I already had that adapter. L1 charging has worked fine for us -- I get about 5.5 miles added per hour of charge, which is more than enough to replace my ~45 mile round trip commute overnight. Even in winter, when energy use goes up, I was able to replace ~90% of my commute miles on the coldest days.

    I have had 2-3 times where I've needed to hit the Supercharger for a 15-20 min to get a boost charge (one time, I forgot to plug the car in one Friday night, and we decided to run some extra errands on the weekend, so we just hit the SC as we headed out on those errands). The Supercharger is about a mile off my commute path, so its an easy backup if needed.

    Note that we don't have a time-of-use option with our electric utility in OH -- which helps. In AZ, we had a TOU plan, so had much less expensive rates from 9pm to 9am and all weekend, so I very rarely charged during the high rate times. That's where having L2 charging at home really helps...
     
    • Like x 1
  10. SSedan

    SSedan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    744
    Location:
    Greenville Wisconsin
    As discussed a NEMA 6-20 would be a super easy upgrade.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  11. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    Location:
    United States
    That's basically what I do for the same reason. I have a carport so the car is outside and in the mornings I would prefer to use the grid to warm the car instead of the battery. The heater is ~10kW so I just dial up the charge rate to 50A in the winter. 20A is plenty for charging and AC in the summer.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. tpham07

    tpham07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,830
    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Even a NEMA 5-20 is found in a lot of garages these days. Charging at 16A is okay if you drive less than 50 miles a day.
     
  13. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    Location:
    United States
    Still 120v. Still a ~10% penalty for 120v vs ~240v. If you have a NEMA 5-20 it's worth repurposing the wire to a 6-20. Turn the N in to a L and you double the charge rate and use ~10% less energy.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. tpham07

    tpham07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,830
    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    well sure, if you wanna go down that route and poke holes in my comment. There are plenty of places where repurposing a 120V to 240V outlet is not feasible or possible. I was simply stating a 5-20 charging solution is going to yield a decent charge advantage over 5-15.
     
  15. Rockster

    Rockster Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    McKinney, TX
    I don’t think there’s an intrinsic problem with hooking up an HPWC at 80 amps. I ran an 80 amp HPWC for five years with perfect performance from the HPWC. Like you, I only charged at 80 amps when necessary, which for me meant we had driven around town all day and then needed a quick charge to dash to Austin. I since replaced the one with two of them, load sharing the same 100 amp circuit, and sold my original HPWC to a friend.
     
  16. ZBB

    ZBB Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,518
    Location:
    Scottsdale
    Unfortunately, the 5-20 circuit in my garage has 2 outlets, and I need the other outlet to have 120...
     
  17. yuhong

    yuhong Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2018
    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    I think they know that many apartment dwellers for example have only 120V charging or even no charging at all. That is why they made it more efficient in Model 3 and are building many urban superchargers.
     
  18. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,317
    Location:
    Sydney
    It's even easier to charge from standard outlets in countries with 240V household voltage.
    Pretty much all of Europe and Asia are 240V. Here in Australia the standard outlet is 240V at 10A, so 2.4kW.
    I still like my HPWC, but had no trouble during the few months before I installed it.
     
  19. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    7,275
    Location:
    Maine
    240V at 24A gives, IIRC, the best charging efficiency, which requires a 30A circuit.

    But in terms of practicality it comes down to the miles you need, electricity prices and climate.
    If you have a flat rate at reasonable price then you can plug in and charge any time.

    120V at 12A charging is 1.44kW. If we're conservative and say 80% efficiency, that's 1.152kW to the battery. If we're again conservative and say just 3mi/kWh that's 3.456mph.
    Let's be conservative again and say that your car is plugged in 7pm to 7am weekdays, to 10am Saturday morning and 12 hours on Sunday.
    That's 7 + 5 * 12 + 3 + 12 = 82 hours of charging.
    82 * 3.456 = 283.92 mpw (miles per week)
    283.92 mpw * (365.25dpy/7dpw) = 14814.54 miles per year, which is a pretty good amount.

    Of course, that charging is miles per week, and not all weeks are the same, so you'll need to use public chargers, but as long as your _typical_ week falls comfortably within your weekly charging limit it can work.

    Also, when it comes to 120V charging, the battery buffer is a significant factor. There is an irony that the larger buffer of long-range electrics makes them _more_ practical to charge on 120V at 12A and more comfortable using relatively low amperage 240V.

    For example, If you can get 45 miles of charging every weekday night, and 90 miles each day of the weekend and you commute 80 miles per day, your battery will lose 35 miles of charge per weekday, so you'd need a buffer of at least 175 miles for your working week. In mild climates this could be done solely using home charging with a long-range electric, but not with a short-range electric. Even if it's a bit tight, in general long-range electrics charge at higher power on DC then short-range electrics, so any supplementary public charging is also likely to take less time.
     
  20. yuhong

    yuhong Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2018
    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC
    On the other hand, EVs with bigger batteries often charges slower on 120V than EVs with smaller batteries. I think they have spent some effort fixing this with Model 3 though.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC