Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Tesla has to move out quickly those version they made pubic at the IPO sharing the same platform. This includes a cabriolet, Coupe (2-doors), Limousine (Model S is more like a 4-door Coupe), a taxi suitable version etc. A luxury version of Gen-III for those, the Model S is just too big, but have the money (like M3).
 
Last edited:
This is a bit out of left field, but hope it doesn't sound too random. How come Tesla's competitors are dropping dead left and right while established car companies (mostly) keep pushing unprofitable models that the customers don't want? Is Tesla really that much different? How can there be only one or two electric car models in the world that aren't complete flops, and how can they be so much better that they have crossed the space from flop to passable to really, really good? Are we just fooling ourselves here that Musk and his team are on a completely different planet than everyone else?

I can see the source of the immense skepticism that the shorts have for Tesla. Sometimes I'm even wondering myself if it's possible to do things to much better than everyone else seems to be. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? I think it's a good exercise to defend my long position to see things from the other perspective. I could verbalize a very good case for why Tesla will succeed and even constitute a threat to established automakers, but right now I'm in the mood to try to prove otherwise.
 
This is a bit out of left field, but hope it doesn't sound too random. How come Tesla's competitors are dropping dead left and right while established car companies (mostly) keep pushing unprofitable models that the customers don't want? Is Tesla really that much different? How can there be only one or two electric car models in the world that aren't complete flops, and how can they be so much better that they have crossed the space from flop to passable to really, really good? Are we just fooling ourselves here that Musk and his team are on a completely different planet than everyone else?

I can see the source of the immense skepticism that the shorts have for Tesla. Sometimes I'm even wondering myself if it's possible to do things to much better than everyone else seems to be. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? I think it's a good exercise to defend my long position to see things from the other perspective. I could verbalize a very good case for why Tesla will succeed and even constitute a threat to established automakers, but right now I'm in the mood to try to prove otherwise.


Tesla's biggest Problems:

1. Lack of acceptance of EV/Brand Recognition/Lack of budget for advertising

2. Lack of meaningful sales record

3. Lack of reliability rating

4. Lack of charging infrastructure

5. Large competitors and big oil as enemies

6. Lack of dealerships to sell their cars

7. Expense of cars currently being made and requirements for significant improvements in battery tech to make GEN III affordable.

8. Time required to recharge on longer drives

9. Distant from many rural customers for service or charging
 
How come Tesla's competitors are dropping dead left and right while established car companies (mostly) keep pushing unprofitable models that the customers don't want?

Some of the startups were trying to make cheap EVs. You can't make cheap competitive cars without volume, but a startup doesn't have enough capital for that (and can't raise it because enough capital to reach volume, while necessary for success, is nowhere near sufficient for success. Nobody wants to invest a LOT of money on something very risky. Unless they truly believe in it and have a lot of the money and skills to get it done themselves; few people fit that criteria).

Fisker had the right idea in starting at the high end and moving down, and produced a beautiful car with great handling that didn't have any range concerns for timid consumers, but executed poorly in a number of areas - just bad management. There are other threads that detail that.

As for the established automakers, they've been able to make great EVs for a long time. Their problem is that (by law, as we have seen in other threads!) they have to sell their cars through dealers. Dealers generally operate on a narrow margin, and they can make more money on gas cars, while putting less work in to the sales process - consumers have a LOT of questions about cars with entirely new powertrain technologies. So few dealers are interested in putting the time and money in to sell EVs effectively. This leaves the automakers in a rough place - they can produce a great car that their customers will love, but their sales channel won't move it! So rather than try to make it work, they make small numbers of quick conversions - which ensures that the situation will never change, because they are only offering small numbers of high-priced, sub-optimal vehicles.

A few automakers (Nissan, GM, BMW) are dipping their toes in to the water and trying something different. None of them are making wild gambles though; and all of them are caught up in brand management despite their recognition of the conquest potential - useful when selling commodity gas cars, but potentially fatal when dealing with a disruptive technology. They are not trying to sell EVs; they are trying to sell their brand, and the EVs are largely there to draw customers in, not to stand on their own (or cannibalize their other sales). If the major automakers futz around long enough, and Tesla doesn't hit any hiccups, Tesla does have a great chance being production (rather than demand) limited for a very long time.

I could verbalize a very good case for why Tesla will succeed and even constitute a threat to established automakers, but right now I'm in the mood to try to prove otherwise.

You are completely correct that Tesla was a very risky business case, and while they have made great strides, they are not out of the woods yet. Investing long in TSLA has been, and continues to be, high risk. There is nobody rooting harder for (and actively trying to help!) them than I, but there are way too many things that can go wrong for me to consider large growth - or even continued operations - to be a sure thing for Tesla.

The main difference between me and the shorts is that while I know Tesla's success is not guaranteed, I at least see a lot of potential because I know how good EVs are. Many shorts still have not tried one and honestly think they are crappy and nobody will ever want one. Try reading the comments on a major news article about EVs some time; it's breathtaking how far some of their perceptions are from reality. They can't grok that it's possible for an EV to be a good car; they are convinced they are just penalty cars for hippies. Making investment bets on a product you don't understand is never a good strategy.
 
Last edited:
This is a bit out of left field, but hope it doesn't sound too random. How come Tesla's competitors are dropping dead left and right while established car companies (mostly) keep pushing unprofitable models that the customers don't want? Is Tesla really that much different? How can there be only one or two electric car models in the world that aren't complete flops, and how can they be so much better that they have crossed the space from flop to passable to really, really good? Are we just fooling ourselves here that Musk and his team are on a completely different planet than everyone else?

I can see the source of the immense skepticism that the shorts have for Tesla. Sometimes I'm even wondering myself if it's possible to do things to much better than everyone else seems to be. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? I think it's a good exercise to defend my long position to see things from the other perspective. I could verbalize a very good case for why Tesla will succeed and even constitute a threat to established automakers, but right now I'm in the mood to try to prove otherwise.

Batteries are:
A) Expensive
B) Low density
C) Slow to recharge
All of those things limit the market. Tesla:
A) Is trying to overcome all of the above problems
B) Uses an approach to the EV drivetrain that minimizes commodity price issues and gives them rapid access to improvements in battery technology at low pirce. (Induction motor, commodity cell form factor.)
C) Has built a car that's desirable and practical.

What is Tesla's target unit profit margin for the Model S?
(I ask this because I bet a relatively high proportion of Tesla enthusiasts know the answer and it's not true of many companies. Oh, and they'll give a cheer if Tesla succeeds. That's what good will does.)
 
Last edited:
This is a bit out of left field, but hope it doesn't sound too random. How come Tesla's competitors are dropping dead left and right while established car companies (mostly) keep pushing unprofitable models that the customers don't want?

That's just it - they've been building cars that people don't want. They didn't have the vision to build a truly spectacular vehicle.
 
What is Tesla's target unit profit margin for the Model S?
(I ask this because I bet a relatively high proportion of Tesla enthusiasts know the answer and it's not true of many companies. Oh, and they'll give a cheer if Tesla succeeds. That's what good will does.)

I believe Musk has said that Tesla is hoping to have a 25% profit margin by the end of the year. However, I can't find anything concrete to back that up.
 
The issue with dealerships selling EVs is simple. They make the majority of their income on the servicing, not the sales. Why recommend an EV when it's not going to need much service? Profit is in ICE repair.
The portion I quoted referred to this as a Tesla problem. It's not. It's a problem for existing brand shackled with dealerships. Dealerships are like a poison pill in open source software licenses, apparently. Unions lately seem to be the same way. Okay, okay, I'll shsh before the politics police break out the whambulance.
 
This article has a lot of new, significant information: http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/05/te...nvisions-selling-around-500k-units-long-term/

In North America current order rates are running at around 20K units on an annualized basis
After the earnings call, my understanding was that it was global orders that were running at that rate. If they are doing that just in NA... wow.

The company expects that global demand for Model S could exceed their initial expectations of 40K-50K units annually.

Again: Wow.

Longer term, Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) envisions selling around 500K units through a combination of the Gen 3 sedan (around 200K units), Gen 3 SUV (about 150K units), Model S/X (roughly 90K units) and the next Gen Roadster. From a timing standpoint, the company intends to start deliveries of the Model X in 2015 and hopes to start the Gen 3 production by 2017.

Not seen the demand projections broken down in this detail before.

the company is targeting to exit the year at a 23K-25K annualized run rate
Very exciting, and points to confidence in the 21k sales target for 2012!

The main goal of the production team currently is to get production levels of 20K on a single shift across most processes (currently body assembly and finished assembly are still running on a 2 shift basis) and then ramp up to 40K units in 2 shifts.
Presumably, then, the switch to two shifts will happen late 2013, so that the 40k/year levels are reached early 2014.

For the ramp up beyond 40K, the Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) will require only $25-$50mn of additional capex to take the volumes to 50K units annually.
The NUMMI investment was such a masterstroke I get goose bumps.

Tesla is pleased with the battery performance and has not encountered any major issues thus far.
So strike that one from the list of main risks...

Tesla envisions that the cost per KWhr will decline to less than $100 over the next 10 years which is a roughly 75% reduction from the current levels.
...which means a compound annual decline of ~13%

Longer term, Tesla envisions a technology that would reduce the time spent at a charging station to be less than the time it takes to fill up a gas tank of a standard internal combustion vehicle.
Aha, so swapping will only be demonstrated now, and launched later/longer term! We all seemed to think that the "under-the-nose" announcement would be something that would be available fairly immediately.

GHG/CAFÉ credits – Tesla believes that revenues from these credits are far more reliable and sustainable than from the sale of ZEV credits. TSLA has $17.1mn in revenues from these credits in Q1 and expects them to continue to remain a source of revenues in the long term.
Hmm, on the one side very positive/interesting. On the other side, given the way they structured the P&L in the last earnings, I get a feeling that the 25% margin they are targeting is including these credits. Not what I expected, and means that some profit may be double-counted in some projections. On the other hand, if Tesla is right about the persistence of these credits, it should not make a big difference. But will make it possible for people to keep claiming that Tesla is somehow receiving "dole-outs".

Power-train business – Tesla is not clear about the future trajectory of this business as volumes of their customers have not been meaningful thus far. However, the company remains ready to service their customers if demand picks up.
Oh, the irony. A small company doing very well, that also provides parts to big ones like Daimler and Toyota, and then "the volumes of their customers have not been meaningful so far". ROFLMAO!

I am wondering whether we can be sure that Value Walk are getting all the details right, e.g. the stuff about the current 20k run rate of demand being just North America. So I am not going to rely on all of this without corroboration from other sources. But nevertheless very interesting and suggestive!
 
I still think you can read all of Tesla's comments regarding reduced time charging as a potential increase in the charge rate and not a battery swap. If there is a ~75% improvement in battery technology over the next decade then it shouldn't be that hard to envision a 300 mile battery option (assuming that charge density improves as well) which makes me wonder about the medium to long term utility of a distributed battery swap network. If we assume that 100 stations in the US gives some sort of good coverage (based on their initial plan for the superchargers) then the cost of investment capital (land, building, equipment, batteries) plus maintenance (service employees) will not be trivial, especially if the useful life is only a decade.

I've seen some estimates on the site looking at charge rates pointing out that the current needed for a 3 minute "fill up" will likely exceed any reasonable infrastructure that isn't supercapacitor based + massive charge cable. Ok, but I've never spent 3 mins filling up my cars, typically 10 mins is more like it. Given that the charge comments seemingly are hedged with "longer term" or something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at some upgraded battery + higher supercharger charge rates (150kW? 180kW?) giving 200 mile range in 10mins - longer term of course.
 
I still think you can read all of Tesla's comments regarding reduced time charging as a potential increase in the charge rate and not a battery swap. If there is a ~75% improvement in battery technology over the next decade then it shouldn't be that hard to envision a 300 mile battery option (assuming that charge density improves as well) which makes me wonder about the medium to long term utility of a distributed battery swap network. If we assume that 100 stations in the US gives some sort of good coverage (based on their initial plan for the superchargers) then the cost of investment capital (land, building, equipment, batteries) plus maintenance (service employees) will not be trivial, especially if the useful life is only a decade.

I've seen some estimates on the site looking at charge rates pointing out that the current needed for a 3 minute "fill up" will likely exceed any reasonable infrastructure that isn't supercapacitor based + massive charge cable. Ok, but I've never spent 3 mins filling up my cars, typically 10 mins is more like it. Given that the charge comments seemingly are hedged with "longer term" or something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at some upgraded battery + higher supercharger charge rates (150kW? 180kW?) giving 200 mile range in 10mins - longer term of course.

+1. Right now battery swapping is pure speculation - no overheard employee conversation, no 'stumbled upon' battery swapping station with a Model S up in the air. Nothing. It's possible, but I believe extremely unlikely, that we'll hear about battery swapping.

I would be stunned to hear it is battery swapping. (Disclaimer: I've been wrong more than once in my life.)
 
This article has a lot of new, significant information

@DonPedro - EXCELLENT breakdown of the new "gems" that came out of this Goldman factory visit/unveiling of their business, hoping Value Walk got it all correct. But, seeing the skyrocketing to (at 5:29pm - 111 - in after hours trading), at least some of this must be correct. The market is clearly loving it... as am I :cool:
 
This is contradictory to the facts. We saw increased demand for MS in December of 2012, followed by weak demand in January - March, followed by the increased demand in April-May. The pattern is more consistent with the typical seasonal car sales dynamic, which is a an absolutely great indicator for MS.

Too short a time to establish any patterns. Even Leaf orders had ups & downs, before really falling. The real question to me is - what is the order like in 2014.

Perhaps you missed that point in my original post, but EM have also recently increased his estimation of the US demand from 10-15K/year to more than 15K/year.
I thought the idea is to figure out a number outside of what Tesla tells us.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a con to the extent that NC, TX, NY, CO etc can prevent Tesla from selling cars. OBVIOUSLY its not a CON to not have franchised dealers otherwise.
I don't think any of that will come to pass. Clearly those are not constitutional and I'm sure Tesla will sue.