Lower range of P vs. LR - How much is it the tires vs. the wheels?

[TheRFMan]

I'm trying to get some data to decide between P and LR (with boost). The 2021 P has 11% less range than the LR. Knowing that they both have the same battery and heat pump, etc., it seems that the difference in wheels and tires is responsible for most if not all of that range loss.

Are there estimates of how much of that loss is because of the wheels, and how much is because of the tires?

I noticed that in Europe, the WLTP range of the P is much closer to the LR. If I'm not mistaken, WLTP is lower speed, which leads me to think it's more the wheels than the tires, since aero wheels make a bigger difference at higher speeds.

I'm essence, I'm trying to estimate what would happen in the two following scenarios:

1) If I were to put Michelin PS4S tires on the 18" Aero wheels on a LR, would its range be closer to that of the LR with the MXM4s or to the P with the PS4Ss?

2) If I were to put Michelin PS4S tires on 18" aero-style wheels (such as the Fast EV-01+ that are as efficient as Tesla's aeros) on the P, would it increase its effective range to get closer to the LR?

Essentially, I wouldn't want to drive the LR with boost on the MXM4 tires, but if putting PS4S tires on the LR reduces its range to something close to the P, I might as well just get the P for the other goodies it has. Conversely, if there is significant range to be gained by putting aerodynamic 18" wheels with PS4S tires on the P, that might be the best of both worlds (cost aside, obviously).

 

[DCsquared]

Well, first off one issue you'll run into is that the stock 18" wheels (with aero cover or not doesn't matter) will NOT fit on the P due to the increased brake size. You can buy aftermarket 18s that clear the caliper if you want, but the stock 18s just won't make it. Now regarding the question about the tires, I would imagine that the range hit is more related to the tire compound (PS4S being stickier) than wheel size. I've got 3k miles on my LR AWD so far and have had staggered aftermarket 20s with PS4S on since like mile 15 (245 up front, 285 rear) and my average WH/mi over the 3k is a whopping 330, which isn't exactly efficient, but it looks incredible lol. Hopefully that helps you some. For me the decision to go LRAWD over the P was that I wanted to choose my own wheels, suspension mods, add boost, and still come in cheaper (and better handling) than if I'd dropped the extra $9k for the P. Sure, I'm missing a touch of speed off the line, bigger brakes, and no track mode, but I'm ok with that. It really just depends on what you want to do with the car.

 

[TheRFMan]

I'm aware that the stock aeros won't fit on a P. These will however, and were tested to have the same efficiency as the stock aeros in a controlled test on a high-speed oval: https://www.fastwheels.ca/ProductInfoMin.aspx?wn=EV01(+)&fn=Titanium&lang=en-US . They're designed here in Canada, which is also nice.

Essentially, what I would really like would be a long-range with boost and track mode, but that's not possible. I agree with you, suspension, brakes, etc. can be upgraded, but I can't add track mode. I'd be afraid of cooking the battery on a track without the extra cooling of Track Mode. On the flip side, sacrificing 10% range to get track mode that I'd use a few times per year is not great either.

What I really need is a M3P- . Perhaps it will make a comeback as I ponder my decision over the winter

 

[Mash]

Track mode is way more than cooling. You almost can't track without it to be honest. You can ride, but traction control kills every turn. Even with track mode and traction set to -10 - it's still doing funny things.

What is going to kill your range is how much fun the car is. Not tires. Buy P. 4S tires anyway amazing for daily driving and if you put them on LR you end up with the same 10% loss that you won't really notice without checking numbers. But you won't have that thrill and the track mode. And you going to regret it.

You can save few % of range, get better comfort if you sell 20s for 18s with 4s. Before you dent them, which you will.

 

[MikeHolliday]

One item many people miss in range consideration is the spoiler.

The downforce that is created by the spoiler does not come without a penalty.
The Spoiler creates more drag than many people would believe. I would expect that the
heavier wheels and the spoiler in the performance share pretty equally in the range loss.

Even if a 21" Wheel was lighter than an 18", it is very possible that the 18" would be more
efficient due to rotational mass.

 

[dfwatt]

I'm trying to get some data to decide between P and LR (with boost). The 2021 P has 11% less range than the LR. Knowing that they both have the same battery and heat pump, etc., it seems that the difference in wheels and tires is responsible for most if not all of that range loss.

Are there estimates of how much of that loss is because of the wheels, and how much is because of the tires?

I noticed that in Europe, the WLTP range of the P is much closer to the LR. If I'm not mistaken, WLTP is lower speed, which leads me to think it's more the wheels than the tires, since aero wheels make a bigger difference at higher speeds.

I'm essence, I'm trying to estimate what would happen in the two following scenarios:

1) If I were to put Michelin PS4S tires on the 18" Aero wheels on a LR, would its range be closer to that of the LR with the MXM4s or to the P with the PS4Ss?

2) If I were to put Michelin PS4S tires on 18" aero-style wheels (such as the Fast EV-01+ that are as efficient as Tesla's aeros) on the P, would it increase its effective range to get closer to the LR?

Essentially, I wouldn't want to drive the LR with boost on the MXM4 tires, but if putting PS4S tires on the LR reduces its range to something close to the P, I might as well just get the P for the other goodies it has. Conversely, if there is significant range to be gained by putting aerodynamic 18" wheels with PS4S tires on the P, that might be the best of both worlds (cost aside, obviously).

1) get the performance model- it's a grin machine. If you can afford it it might be the best performance value anywhere of any kind. Forget about worrying over efficiency but you will get back some of your lost efficiency if you do some other things outlined below to reduce drag
2) get the Mountain Pass Performance Comfort Adjustable coilover kit and drop the car about 1.5 in
3) keep the stock Tesla spec Michelin Pilot Sport 4S Tire - they're the best street tire for the car hands down not even close (if you can still get them on the 2021 model!)
4) get some forged lightweight alloy wheels in a 9 by 20 inch size
5) get the UP front spoiler or the equivalent

The better aerodynamics will get you halfway to the Aero and tire wheel efficiency. You'll still lose a little bit in terms of extra consumption due to the wider and higher rolling resistance tire (PS4s vs MXM4). But the car will handle better, ride better, look better, be more fun to drive, and the difference between that and the long range model in terms of range and efficiency is not worth worrying about. You only go around once in life. Get the maximum grins per mile not the minimum Watt hours per mile.

My two cents worth

 

[Sam1]

P3D- I went from the 19" turbines to the Jova 18" lightweight rims that are probably the least aerodynamic of any wheel around.

19" with turbines and the all season continental contipro rx (500 wear) I averaged 289wh/mi for almost 40,000 miles (still on the trip meter).

18" with Michelin PS4S (300 wear), I have averaged 285wh/mi for right at 7,000 miles (also still recording via trip meter).

Take that info as you will; lighter rims offset the softer tires a lot more than I expected. I drive the car hard and haven't changed my habits any. Believe that an average over 7,000 miles is plenty stable enough to make a comparison from.

 

[Mash]

One item many people miss in range consideration is the spoiler.

The downforce that is created by the spoiler does not come without a penalty.
The Spoiler creates more drag than many people would believe. I would expect that the
heavier wheels and the spoiler in the performance share pretty equally in the range loss.

Even if a 21" Wheel was lighter than an 18", it is very possible that the 18" would be more
efficient due to rotational mass.

Spoiler is not for downforce. It's for adding maximum speed. Longer versions of it doing it even better. It adds the range.

21 and 18 inch wheels are almost same weight, surprise. Because 18 inch tires are heavier. And weight has very small influence on a range. Compound and how open wheel spokes are has the most impact.

 

[UncertainTimes]

One item many people miss in range consideration is the spoiler.

The downforce that is created by the spoiler does not come without a penalty.
The Spoiler creates more drag than many people would believe. I would expect that the
heavier wheels and the spoiler in the performance share pretty equally in the range loss.

Even if a 21" Wheel was lighter than an 18", it is very possible that the 18" would be more
efficient due to rotational mass.

The spoiler isn’t even fully attached to the car. If anything it’s creating drag.

 

[TheRFMan]

1) get the performance model- it's a grin machine. If you can afford it it might be the best performance value anywhere of any kind. Forget about worrying over efficiency but you will get back some of your lost efficiency if you do some other things outlined below to reduce drag
2) get the Mountain Pass Performance Comfort Adjustable coilover kit and drop the car about 1.5 in
3) keep the stock Tesla spec Michelin Pilot Sport 4S Tire - they're the best street tire for the car hands down not even close (if you can still get them on the 2021 model!)
4) get some forged lightweight alloy wheels in a 9 by 20 inch size
5) get the UP front spoiler or the equivalent

Good points! Hard to argue against 1). Not sure I can do 2) and 5) ; I might not be able to pull in to my driveway with the car lowered and a front spoiler too. It's also common to get 4-6 inches of snow overnight here, so I don't want the car too low. Agree with 3), although it's not clear which tires come with the 2021. The Canadian website says Pirelli in one place and Michelin in another. 4) I don't think I would do 20s is I bought new wheels. Roads are too rough around here. That's one of my main concerns about the stock wheels on the P that had me considering the LE + Boost. Many years ago, I had a car with fairly low profile tires (215/45R17), and I ended up with 2 cracked wheels and 4 flats in 8 years from potholes (and other 3 from punctures!).

 

[MasterC17]

Regarding the spoiler, Unplugged Performance did an excellent study on it which concluded the following "Overview: The optional factory Tesla rear spoiler provides sleek looks with optimized airflow characteristics to enhance efficiency as well as high speed stability. Result: As expected, this product is not just for looks, it indeed performs improvements in high-speed stability and drag reduction. The vehicle’s total drag was reduced by 2.3% and the rear downforce was increased over baseline by 34.7%. This reduced the total drag coefficient (Cd) by 0.005."

Independent Aerodynamic Study of Tesla Model 3 by Unplugged Performance

Regarding wheel and tire efficiency, it is my opinion that the tire plays the biggest role in determining efficiency, all else being equal. That being said, there are a multitude of factors to consider, so it is difficult to compare them fairly (ambient temperatures, wind resistance, speed, elevation changes, etc).

It is worth considering that in areas with poor road surfaces the larger 20" wheels will bend easily. The PS4S is an excellent tire, though it is fairly wide in the stock 20", 235 width. For the best efficiency while maintaining desirable handling characteristics, I would personally try to find a lightweight, forged 18x8" or 18x8.5" wheel that clears the PUP brakes to mount the 18" PS4S on to. I believe this would roughly achieve the result you are looking for, though it won't be as efficient as the 18" MXM4.

If you prefer the look of a 19", that's a solid option as well, I would just avoid going any larger. FWIW I have found the Hankook Evo3 to be a solid contender in the 19" size, striking a nice balance between efficiency and handling characteristics at a reasonable price.

 

[dfwatt]

Good points! Hard to argue against 1). Not sure I can do 2) and 5) ; I might not be able to pull in to my driveway with the car lowered and a front spoiler too. It's also common to get 4-6 inches of snow overnight here, so I don't want the car too low. Agree with 3), although it's not clear which tires come with the 2021. The Canadian website says Pirelli in one place and Michelin in another. 4) I don't think I would do 20s is I bought new wheels. Roads are too rough around here. That's one of my main concerns about the stock wheels on the P that had me considering the LE + Boost. Many years ago, I had a car with fairly low profile tires (215/45R17), and I ended up with 2 cracked wheels and 4 flats in 8 years from potholes (and other 3 from punctures!).

Understood on All Points. Maybe the way to go would be to get a 245 / 45 18 Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tire on a lightweight alloy wheel. It would have a little bit more sidewall than the stock tire size, while only a 1% increase in Rolling diameter, which actually would fix the slight optimism of the speedometer. The larger size and the thicker sidewall would really help relative to your bad experience with 215/45 tires.

Shame about your driveway. Lowering the car really improves efficiency, appearance, handling, while obviously making it a bit dicier to traverse some roads and driveways. We've lowered both of our performance Model 3s and we've actually found it okay in terms of what we thought would be challenging driveways

 

[Clivew]

For daily driving on my M3P, I’m personally replacing the 20” wheels + PS4S tyres with lightweight forged 18x8.5 wheels and the Tesla specific 245/45/18 PS4 tyres that are available in the UK.

I doubt the performance spoiler produces downforce, rather, it reduces lift.

 

[TheRFMan]

So just out of curiosity, for those of you using lightweight 18's, which ones are you using?

 

[Tanis]

I have the Martian forged wheels, 18*8,5.
My efficiency went up by 10 a 11%, so close to LR awd value.
Handling, comfort and acceleration really improved. I should measure the 0-100kph time, it feels quicker!

 

[Apone]

Hello all - there is a brand new video put up yesterday on exactly this topic.

Regarding spoilers, as mentioned they can be tuned for either purpose. In this case, I doubt it is downforce as those tend to rise off of the car and channel air between it and the vehicle to push it down. The one on the P looks to help the air separate from the car and not cause more drag at the rear. My last car had a speed activated pop up spoiler for high speed stability. It did reduce gas mileage but I never got tired of accelerating and watching it come up

 

[XLR82XS]

Shame about your driveway. Lowering the car really improves efficiency, appearance, handling, while obviously making it a bit dicier to traverse some roads and driveways. We've lowered both of our performance Model 3s and we've actually found it okay in terms of what we thought would be challenging driveways

FWIW my Model 3's are lowered on Eibach springs and it's definitely a must do. Improvements as you state are worth it 100%. I have zero issues with scraping, driveways, entryways, etc...
View media item 121369

 

[TheRFMan]

I have zero issues with scraping, driveways, entryways, etc...

Perhaps, but you don't need to deal with this in your part of the world, which is fairly common here between December and March

 

[XLR82XS]

Perhaps, but you don't need to deal with this in your part of the world, which is fairly common here between December and March

Oh I dealt with that. Lived in Detroit for 35 years and had cars there that were lower than the 3. Now if there was 2 feet of snow it was E500 4matic time - a beast in winter weather.

Even in summer though the roads are terrible in Michigan unless you're way north (Torch Lake, etc...) So happy to have wonderful roads where I live.

 

[dfwatt]

Perhaps, but you don't need to deal with this in your part of the world, which is fairly common here between December and March

That picture is triggering me! Brings back years of horrible memories of living in the Northeast and being buried in freakin' snow! No more! Florida here we come!