M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[Ugene]

I bought Model 3 Performance because of this intoxicating driving experience, because Tesla started to care about driving enthusiast crowd, and importantly because the car looked practical enough in terms of range and winter driving abilities. I'd be disappointed if I am proven wrong. I'd be disappointed if I can't make a 170 mile round trip to my favorite ski resort on single full charge (Crystal Mountain from Seattle); or even if I have to hypermile during such trip.

This is a very educational discussion. I ordered Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 for the 20" wheel but am having second thoughts.

20' vs 18".
Aside from lower price, lower risk to damage the rims, and softer sidewall I don't understand why 18" tire is superior to 20" given the radius is the same. Does the sidewall stiffness make that much difference between the 18" and 20" tire in real world snow driving?

AWD Tesla vs Audi (even with sport/center diff).
From abstract engineering standpoint I don't see why Tesla's AWD can't become superior to Audi's, at least in stabilizing the car and gaining traction (I imagine Audi may have some benefit in efficiency when accelerating while torque vectoring as it does not need to break one of the wheels). Maybe it has not happened for all the conditions, but I don't see any reason not to.
The car mostly grips better that my Audi S4 with roughly equivalent summers and I can't wait to get winter tires and test. Still, while I am still learning how the car handles in all situations, I'd be horrified to drive it as aggressively as my Audi S4 (with Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4) through puddles of standing water and trickier snow. Audi is very predicable for me and I fool myself that I know my abilities while driving it.

****

RE: range: FYI: I am using 320-420 wt/mile in my ~36 mile daily roundtrip in sport mode on summer tires in 45-55 degree weather with the climate on 70-72, without driving too aggressively. Seems worse than most of you.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Running 35 profile tires in the winter seems nuts to me. Seems like a huge increase in the risk of rim damage with the only benefit being appearance (which is of course subjective). Also it sounds like the snow tires available in 20" sizes are more oriented toward cold weather performance than snow and ice performance.

 

[jjjord]

To OP: I have both performance (20” wheels) and a LR RWD with the 18” aero. I researched for winter tires for the P3D and found no one was able to put 18” wheels on “red brakes”. If you get 19”s that are extra wide inside to fit the brakes and modified for the hub it could work, but no 18. I understand you ordered 18”s and will be very curious to find if they work. My winter set is from evwheels and PA4s like yours and I’m still waiting. For both. Don’t care much since winter here is mild and summer tires are still doable. I only want the PA4s as cold weather solution for Dec-Feb, might switch to some AS too.

Being in VA I don’t have the same driving conditions but the wipers definitely don’t work as they are supposed to. I am not happy when they work when they are not needed. I am not happy when they work very slow and can’t keep up with the rain. I don’t like when in the morning the windshield heater heats up the windshield way above the wipers and the wipers stay in the ice block they were in. I don’t like when I can’t lift the wipers to wash my windshield at a gas (food/restroom) station. I don’t like when I need to take my eyes off the road to turn the wipers on. As somebody else mention earlier I’ve been thinking about double push wiper button to toggle wipers between OFF and LOW (...)

One thing to remind - this is a tech gadget in beta version more than a car. When you pay for a Tesla car you pay for high tech, not for practical and economical solution. We are not there yet. I want to smack somebody when they start comparing running costs car life savings etc - ICE cars are better in that way. For example get a $70,000 BMW 3 series and it will be way more comfortable/luxurious/extras rich/better resale value? etc. it won’t be green though and it won’t be near as fast as the M3P - the reason why I have mine.

For all of you that can’t see the difference between the 20 and 18 wheels - 18 wheel tires (obviously same width and diameter as the 20s) will have much more volume and taller sidewall which allows for lower pressure, hence the bigger contact area and traction with the pavement/snow. That is if they are the same model/compound you nitpickers!

About the AWD - the good thing is Tesla can update the firmware and their system will be better overnight - that is what your 70k buy you, not an alternative to torsen, active or other fancy differential. I am not sure how their stability system works, but I assume is like almost any other car (excluding locking differentials) - using the brakes to counter act slippage and avoid torque redirection to the slipping wheel from the open differential.

 

[NHK X]

But I still think you're missing my intent. One more time.

My post is about Tesla selling a car that when the owner puts snow tires on it, the only snow tires sold, the car failed - in the conditions I described. That is unacceptable for a car of any price. It's super unacceptable for this car, and for Tesla, given the claims they make in their advertisements.

A Porsche owner (sand Cayenne) doesn't expect their car to perform in Winter conditions. Someone buying a 2 seater BMW doesn't expect their car to perform in Winter conditions.

But someone buying a Tesla Sedan does expect it. And if you read Tesla's advertising they promote their All Wheel Drive as the best. They don't say some versions of their All Wheel Drive -- it's all, their All Wheel Drive. So yes, I had every right to expect, 20" tires or not, that my car would do great in where I live Winter -- because it comes with Tesla's All Wheel Drive.

I also wrote that I knew I was taking a chance. I'm not asking for money back, and I know Tesla isn't going to buy me a new wheel set. But if I was Elon and I read this, I think it'd be good will to do so.

Finally, I wrote this so to pay it forward. No reason why Tesla can't include 18" wheels as an option in a performance sedan. But it not, then it's their duty to the buyer to include, in the manual, that the car may not perform well in Winter, in some areas of the country.

I used to drive an Audi, and I ageee, the Quattro system was a beast. That said, I’ve taken my model X into adverse conditions and it’s is a beast as well.

The problem is that you are taking one single experience to label the car as being bad for winter driving. I get that you are experienced, have tried driving these tires on your Audi. But as others have pointed out, there are multiple factors that may be contributing. People are taking time to make suggestions to see if can help (again many drive these cars through adverse conditions), but it seems that you aren’t willing to consider them at all. If you have tried making these changes and still have trouble in the snow, over multiple experiences it would make your argument stronger.

Not sure what you are paying forward. I think it’s reasonable to tell people in an objective way to consider that the P3D isn’t compatible with the smaller 18” wheel which may limit winter tire options. That’s helpful information. That would be paying it forward in a constructive way.

 

[DrDabbles]

I’d buy an old Jeep Rubicon, or something else with a boss 4WD system made for more extreme conditions.

You've apparently never seen any jeep in any snow. Not only are Jeeps known for needing repairs constantly basically since their inception, but because of their extremely square wheelbase they tend to spin like tops on snow. Other than that, you can turn your Tesla into a garage queen if you want. That's your business. But it's not very good general advice for anybody else.

researched for winter tires for the P3D and found no one was able to put 18” wheels on “red brakes”. If you get 19”s that are extra wide inside to fit the brakes and modified for the hub it could work, but no 18. I understand you ordered 18”s and will be very curious to find if they work.

There are no less than a thousand threads on here covering all of the 18" options that fit over the performance calipers. I currently have 18" wheels on my P3D, as do hundreds of other members.

 

[N5329K]

Wow. 12 pages to say:
1. Cars optimized for dry pavement performance tend to be lousy in snow (and much worse than far cheaper cars) , and
2. If you insist on driving a performance car in snow, have the proper tires.
Did I skip something?
Robin

 

[DrDabbles]

Wow. 12 pages to say:
1. Cars optimized for dry pavement performance tend to be lousy in snow (and much worse than far cheaper cars) , and
2. If you insist on driving a performance car in snow, have the proper tires.
Did I skip something?
Robin

Yes. You missed everything. The model 3 is fine in the snow. Even in Alaska. But it can be improved in extremely severe conditions. Also, if you drive in snow, no matter what car, you need good snow tires for your typical conditions.

 

[des16]

I have been reading the messages on this thread over the past few weeks, and added my 2 cents earlier on how disappointing the car performs in snow/ice. I am trying to figure out how that viewpoint is not universally shared, and it's difficult to come up with a good explanation. The most plausible is that many of those satisfied with the snow performance do not drive daily in snowy and icy conditions, or that they have have not experienced BMWs and Audis with a proper winter set up, which in my experience, are bullet proof. It's not that the M3 is awful, but, it's just plain poor in comparison to other sports sedans equipped with high quality snows, like the Hakka 3s I run on my cars. It seems there are a few things we can all agree on: the door handles are a serious problem, the wipers are awful for those of us whose car is out in winter conditions daily, and that the range reduction is a serious issue. Owing to the poor winter traction on my M3 I have not been driving it up my very steep driveway when the weather is bad. On nights like last night, when the temps drop into the teens, my car looses almost 20 miles sitting for 10 hours outside. The nighttime range loss, and despite setting the thermostat to 62 and wearing cloves, hats and fleeces, we are operating with a 40 to 50 percent range reduction. As the head of the service department in Salt Lake City remarked to me, these cars just don't like winter. I love the car, and have few regrets, since I drive 40 miles a day up the canyons on a daily basis and was guzzling gas and contributing to the horrible pollution in Salt Lake City. But some days I try to convince my wife to let me use her Alfa Stelvio. So far, no luck. She just finds driving the M3 in the snow too scary.

 

[N5329K]

Yes. You missed everything. The model 3 is fine in the snow. Even in Alaska. But it can be improved in extremely severe conditions. Also, if you drive in snow, no matter what car, you need good snow tires for your typical conditions.

Did I? A lot of electrons were killed pointing out that the Model 3 performance variant has inherent issues in snow when compared with a non-performance version of the car. And even more space was devoted to pointing out the OP's choice of tires as contributing to his problems. I might add that driving a very expensive car that you think should be up to the challenge of heavy ice/snow and watching yourself get passed by "lesser" cars might contribute to a less-than-thoughtful approach to operating the P. But I wasn't there.
Don't recall much else of substance.
Robin

 

[Daniel in SD]

other sports sedans equipped with high quality snows, like the Hakka 3s I run on my cars

Are you running the Hakka 3s on your Model 3?

 

[des16]

Are you running the Hakka 3s on your Model 3?

Yes, brand new tires. I also purchased deducted 18 Aeros since my car came with 19s.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yes, brand new tires. I also purchased deducted 18 Aeros since my car came with 19s.

Interesting. I'm curious if my theory that the AWD is rear biased to take advantage of the more efficient rear motor is true. I wonder if there's an easy way to log the current going to front motor?
When you go up your driveway does it feel like the rear wheels are spinning?

 

[des16]

Honestly I have not driven up the driveway in bad weather. The grade is a tad over 15%, and I have been reluctant to try since I am slipping on the roads which lead to my house which are only between 5 and 10%. I am even more worried about sliding down the driveway, since there is a turn and if I don't make it, a concrete wall. I should add that the driveway is plowed and is heated by hot water. But, there is often a residual of slippery spots and when the snow is heavy, snow does accumulate. Please look at my earlier post where I noted the problems I have are both ascending and descending, but most prominently, when turning where the car just does not track like my other cars -- which by the way have Hakka 2s, not 3s. I assume the newer generation tires are at least as good in terms of winter performance. One more thing to note is that you raised the issue about rear biased. I am not an engineer, so, have really no good insights. However, as far as I understand, my BMWs are rear biased, so, I doubt that has much to do with the poor winter performance.

 

[SageBrush]

added my 2 cents earlier on how disappointing the car performs in snow/ice. I am trying to figure out how that viewpoint is not universally shared
It seems there are a few things we can all agree on:

the door handles are a serious problem

Nope.

and that the range reduction is a serious issue

Nope. My drives this winter are in 225 - 250 Wh/mile range.

On nights like last night, when the temps drop into the teens, my car looses almost 20 miles sitting for 10 hours outside

You may not realize that most of range drop is regained as the battery warms up.
Regarding your surprise at the high energy registered even though you set the AC to 62F: Starting from a low cabin temperature, a setting of 62F or 82F will have much the same power drain until the cabin reaches near 62F.

 

[mspohr]

Too many here expect drivers to flip switches, as if the car requires some kind of training to operate. That's asking way too much of a driver. It's a $75k car. Audi's don't ask this of their drivers. I know. I've driven them for years. I sold one to buy this car.

I'm not suggesting I'm going back to an Audi. I'm done with ICE cars. Our A7 had 150k miles, I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. So I bought a Tesla.

I knew I was taking chances. I knew I was buying a car that was unproven in where I live Winter conditions. I'm not beeching or asking for a refund. I'm just saying this car is a downgrade, in so far as where I live Winter driving.

I also think Tesla isn't being straight with buyers. I hope Elon gets this. Then I hope he shows up on my door step the next Winter storm and asks to drive my car.

I've drive AWD Audi's (four different ones) for the past 20 years. None of them even comes close to Tesla in handling, snow performance, technology. The AWD Tesla is an order of magnitude better than any Audi on snow and ice.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

He has winter tires on his car. Are people not reading his post?

Yeah, there were definitely a few people who were not reading the original post! However, you quoted the wrong person - I explicitly said that I understood that. It’s a little subtle but I was clear what I was responding to specifically.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Honestly I have not driven up the driveway in bad weather. The grade is a tad over 15%, and I have been reluctant to try since I am slipping on the roads which lead to my house which are only between 5 and 10%. I am even more worried about sliding down the driveway, since there is a turn and if I don't make it, a concrete wall. I should add that the driveway is plowed and is heated by hot water. But, there is often a residual of slippery spots and when the snow is heavy, snow does accumulate. Please look at my earlier post where I noted the problems I have are both ascending and descending, but most prominently, when turning where the car just does not track like my other cars -- which by the way have Hakka 2s, not 3s. I assume the newer generation tires are at least as good in terms of winter performance. One more thing to note is that you raised the issue about rear biased. I am not an engineer, so, have really no good insights. However, as far as I understand, my BMWs are rear biased, so, I doubt that has much to do with the poor winter performance.

The BMW system is 60% rear biased. I'm wondering if the Model 3 is 100% rear biased until rear slip is detected. I can't think of any way a Model 3 could be worse going downhill unless the ABS/VSC system is totally messed up. Maybe the regen is also rear biased...
I guess I'm in for a thrill ride if I ever take mine up to the snow with the stock MXM4s! I'm thinking I should stick with my urban assault vehicle with KO2s and a Torsen center diff.

 

[JayM3]

Drove our AWD Model 3 with Sottozero II's through the Rockies to SLC this past week. Hit snow, ice, VERY cold temps, and I felt confident driving it the whole time. Great in the snow so far.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I don't think this has been brought up yet...but I've heard of at least one owner who ordered an AWD 3 but didn't actually get AWD. Maybe the OP and others with problems in the snow should confirm they really have a dual motor 3?

 

[abasile]

I'm wondering if the Model 3 is 100% rear biased until rear slip is detected. I can't think of any way a Model 3 could be worse going downhill unless the ABS/VSC system is totally messed up. Maybe the regen is also rear biased...

I'm wondering this as well, as I was surprised recently to find the rear end of our Model 3 slipping on a downhill curve with light snow and ice while regenning. The car quickly recovered, but not before giving me a bit of a scare, and other vehicles seemed to be handling that curve just fine. Granted, we use the stock all-season tires (because our roads are dry most of the time), but our old front-wheel-drive LEAF has handled that same downhill curve during the winter without issue. That said, our rear-wheel-drive Model S has also been fine.

I am optimistic, however, that all or most of the assumed deficiencies noted here are correctable in software. There's no mechanical reason, that I'm aware of, for existing Model 3 cars to not be able to equal or beat Subaru in the same winter conditions and on the same tires.