M3 Performance Plus thoughts @ 14k miles

[spinbackwards]

All that ever happens on today's Internet is this. Someone like me posts. The blogerati awakes. Alerted, someone has posted. If the post doesn't fit, noise is raised to a level that the post is eventually written off as "a joke". Drowned in other posts, the OP is beaten into submission.

The posts come from the faceless, who don't have enough conviction in what they write to use their real name. Who knows if they even have a car? All we know for sure is they're not in prison - there's no Internet connection in jail.

And yet people believe this. Decisions are made. It happens all day every day, a zillion times a day.

Things are really bad. Much worse than they appear.

Why did I do this. Back to therapy.

Peace and love,

 

[DrDabbles]

If AWD was weak (compared to Audi) as you claim, I don't think switching to Nokian is compensating for a weak AWD system.

/thread

 

[DrDabbles]

All that ever happens on today's Internet is this. Someone like me posts. The blogerati awakes. Alerted, someone has posted. If the post doesn't fit, noise is raised to a level that the post is eventually written off as "a joke". Drowned in other posts, the OP is beaten into submission.

The problem isn't that you don't like the car or that you've posted about disappointment. It's that your initial post in your tire thread was wrong. Then you got proper tires, and suddenly everything was fine. But you can't seem to handle the fact that there are an infinite number of tires for an infinite number of environments and conditions. Tesla doesn't offer every tire and wheel option, and neither does any other manufacturer. I don't understand where the confusion is.

The posts come from the faceless, who don't have enough conviction in what they write to use their real name. Who knows if they even have a car? All we know for sure is they're not in prison - there's no Internet connection in jail.

My username is my real name. Tom. Hello. I'm not sure what that proves. 603 is my area code, which is backed up by my location info (NH is all 603). Again, not sure what this proves or disproves. I have met people from this forum in real life and let them drive my real P3D, and I found them to be a very pleasant couple from not far away.

Things are really bad. Much worse than they appear.

Because people don't agree with you, there's something wrong? "Things are really bad"? You're frustrated Tesla doesn't offer an 18" wheel choice with snow tires that are aggressive enough for your application. Ok. I'd like to point out that companies like Tire Rack, Tire Warehouse, and Canadian Tire all exist to fill this exact space, because no manufacturer offers every option customers may want/need. You fixed your own problem with some help from this forum, and you seemed to be happy with the option you purchased. Was that not friendly enough of us? To offer you free advice from our collective experience, which seems to be suiting you just fine?

Instead of coming on here, a fan forum for a manufacturer, and trying to get all of us to say how much we secretly hate Tesla for the terrible products they make, why not ask if there are any tips people can give for preventing frozen windows or doors? Why not ask if there are batter wiper blade options than the stock units? (There aren't right now) You came here insulting our religion and expected us to reply in kindness, which many of us did. But you're offended and outraged that quite a few of us don't agree with you. Instead of questioning your experience (I thought you said you've used LSD? Do you not question experiences?), you've charged us all as liars and pawns in Elon's evil game of selling low quality cars for those California types. And still, after that, I'm trying to be nice even though I'm not a flower child. Are things really that bad?

 

[zhu-]

The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year.

That's a pretty general statement. Maybe true for someone driving 50k miles in a year, but from my research there are many Model S's that doesn't even lose that much in 3-5 years.

 

[SammichLover]

That's a pretty general statement. Maybe true for someone driving 50k miles in a year, but from my research there are many Model S's that doesn't even lose that much in 3-5 years.

It isn't even clear that the Model 3 will normally lose +/-5% within the first 40,000 miles like the Model S does. I'm 15,000 miles in and I haven't seen my maximum expected range wavier, yet. There are other Model 3 owners that have reported the same with double that mileage run up.

The old normal is relatively quick 3-5% drop and then a very slow decline. The Model 3 battery tech is a full generation newer and appears to have different properties here.

 

[Matt L]

This place is like a disease I can't get rid of.

My name is Paul Kulas. I live in Eagle, CO. What's your name? Where do you live?

For those who simply can't accept what I've wrote, let's do this. Send Tesla over. Watch opensnow.com to know when a storm is coming.

I'll put the tires back on. We'll go for a drive on I-70, back and forth over Vail Pass. Or, put a fund together and y'all come on over. Get your video out.

What to see? The car doesn't hold the road near as well as other cars -- witness them going by me. What else? The Auto on wipers don't work. If it's coming down, you'll see the wipers freeze.

Some here, want to make me out to be wrong -- "I didn't do my homework", "how could you live where I do and be this stupid"?

I posted images of Tesla's marketing. Eh, I believed what they said.

And what part of "I put 18's on and now it's better" didn't you all get? My complaint is I had to spend money to make the car right. Because, Tesla wrote in their marketing that their AWD is the best. Best, to me, means better than Audi. Now you guys want to argue about English?

Someone wrote, "you've never had door handles freeze"? Put it this way. I've done more LSD than I can remember. Maybe, there was a time when door handles froze. But I can't remember it. I've had my Audi's in epic snow. Same with our HIPEVAN. Never had frozen door handles. So would it make you happy if I said, "Not in the last 25 years"??

The reason why I'm outta here is this is the state of the Internet now. Someone posts their experience, and then strangers come out from shadows to tell OP their experience isn't true. The Group Think mentality is so on display here. The Internet is so, not much good now. And this is just a watered down version of social media, which is a social disease.

If you wanna fight, show up to my door. Bring your cameras. And bring Elon.

Otherwise, go pee on yourself.

Jeezus.

Peace and love,

Do you hold any fault for the configuration you chose? Or are you one of those people that think everything is someone else’s fault?

 

[DrDabbles]

It isn't even clear that the Model 3 will normally lose +/-5% within the first 40,000 miles like the Model S does. I'm 15,000 miles in and I haven't seen my maximum expected range wavier, yet. There are other Model 3 owners that have reported the same with double that mileage run up.

The old normal is relatively quick 3-5% drop and then a very slow decline. The Model 3 battery tech is a full generation newer and appears to have different properties here.

This isn't actually the case. By all measurements I've seen actually performed, most recently by Jack Rickard, the Model 3 cell is the same chemistry and properties as the Model S/X 18650 cell. The only improvements appear to come from an increase in volume.

 

[SammichLover]

This isn't actually the case. By all measurements I've seen actually performed, most recently by Jack Rickard, the Model 3 cell is the same chemistry and properties as the Model S/X 18650 cell. The only improvements appear to come from an increase in volume.

So they've got an extra 5% of cells above "full" that they are unlocking as needed to keep it at 100% of initial capacity?

Although that would amount to the same thing, no 5% drop in usable capacity, I'm confused on this "same chemistry" assertion. There have been two tear downs now that list the elements percentages, most notably Co, of the cells as significantly different. That's going to be output from a ground up cell put through a spectral analysis machine.

 

[TEG]

...
You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million
What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait...

That is huge speculation and FUD (as far as I am concerned.)
We don't know what the acquisition will mean for Tesla, nor anything about a timeline related to any Maxwell technology getting into Tesla car batteries.

The Model 3 has (what I think is) current state of the art battery technology for a vehicle.
It has a new cell format and chemistry that is new to the Model 3 and is an evolution beyond what the Model S & X have been using.
So, I think you are doing a disservice to people to suggest that anyone should wait to buy a Model 3 because newer battery technology may be coming.
There is battery research and development being done across the industry, and things do change, but what they have now is quite compelling.

People could sit on the fence forever thinking that the next big thing is just around the corner, but then they miss out on enjoying what is available today.

 

[DrDabbles]

So they've got an extra 5% of cells above "full" that they are unlocking as needed to keep it at 100% of initial capacity?

I'm not sure I follow. If you mean over-charged cells, then the answer is no and that's not really what we're measuring here. As Lithium cells initially age, they lose a small portion of their capacity. That's just a fact of their chemistry. But there's a slight chance that using Maxwell's polymer process, this could be reduced. I'm not sure by how much, since it was a throw-away mention in a single paper I read.

Although that would amount to the same thing, no 5% drop in usable capacity,

Not really. In fact, over-charging cells will permanently damage them and cause microscopic short circuits to form inside the cell's crystalline structure. That leads to permanent lost charge capabilities.

I'm confused on this "same chemistry" assertion. There have been two tear downs now that list the elements percentages, most notably Co, of the cells as significantly different. That's going to be output from a ground up cell put through a spectral analysis machine.

Was that comparing Tesla 18650 cell to Tesla 21700 cell? Was it powerwall to automotive cell? We know that powerwall/pack use different cells compared to what the vehicles use, so that could certainly be a contributing factor. Do you have a link to one of these reports?

 

[StealthP3D]

This isn't actually the case. By all measurements I've seen actually performed, most recently by Jack Rickard, the Model 3 cell is the same chemistry and properties as the Model S/X 18650 cell. The only improvements appear to come from an increase in volume.

No, you are misrepresenting what JR said. He said he really doesn't know.

The fact is, Tesla has let it be known that the cells in the Model 3 are new chemistry. Publically, they have said it has 1/8th the cobalt of the old cells.

 

[MagnusMako]

and in colder temperatures, you can drop it by 30%. (still reach 310, but at a slower speed).

While I agree with most of the points you downplayed, this one I find to be inaccurate. Cold temps are going to reduce your range no matter what and as I'm sure you know it gets pretty significant the more extreme the cold. You can offset it some by driving slower and preconditioning, but you're still not going to get close to full range in real world driving conditions with cold temps, especially if it's in stop and go traffic just commuting to work. And nobody is just going to buy a Tesla and drive slower than grandma all day just to attempt to get the full range. That isn't practical, especially in cold climates. But on this front, I really think Tesla could do more to educate people about the "effective range" based on temperatures.

 

[SammichLover]

Was that comparing Tesla 18650 cell to Tesla 21700 cell?

Yes. Ingredient mix is different. Unclear about how the manufacturing process, and therefore the arrangement of atoms is different because that's a lot harder to determine. But when they ground up the innards of the cells and ran a spectrum analysis on that it was different. The big deal is the large drop in cobalt, as that's something of a chokepoint in scaling up battery production to ICE-replacement levels. Main reason why Musk has set a goal of moving away from Cobalt entirely, the other related reason being that the Co component makes dropping unit costs harder.

As for the first part, you misunderstand my question. Are you suggesting Tesla is including an extra 5% cells and undercharging them until there is initial degradation, then bringing them up to "normal" V levels so they maintain the nominal 100% SOC?

Otherwise I don't understand how you are accounting for what appears so far to be negligible degradation in Model 3 packs?

 

[DrDabbles]

Are you suggesting Tesla is including an extra 5% cells and undercharging them until there is initial degradation, then bringing them up to "normal" V levels so they maintain the nominal 100% SOC?

Ah, I see. No. I'm suggesting that when the pack is new and rolls off the assembly line its nominal rated range would be 310 miles. Like every vehicle, range will change with condition, speed, temperature, etc. So even accounting for the initial degradation, there are people exceeding the 310 EPA rating regularly. And then there are those of us like me with the P3D in cold climates that will never ever hit 310 miles ever. But the pack's range as tested by EPA with their cycle is 310 miles, so that's what Tesla says. IMO, it's a meaningless number and eventually they'll just say "long range" and "short range" for their variants and no mention the EPA rated ranges in their literature.

Otherwise I don't understand how you are accounting for what appears so far to be negligible degradation in Model 3 packs?

I think 5% is exactly that. Negligible. The aero caps have an equal effect on range, and that's basically nothing. 5% is a rated 15 miles, or about 10 seconds of cabin heat.

 

[StealthP3D]

I think 5% is exactly that. Negligible. The aero caps have an equal effect on range, and that's basically nothing. 5% is a rated 15 miles, or about 10 seconds of cabin heat.

15 miles @ 250 Wh/mile is 3,750 Wh or 3.75 kWh. 3.75 kWh is also 5% of 75 kWh. That's enough to run two 1500 Watt space heaters on high for 1 1/4 hours.

While the Model 3 cabin heater is nominally 6-7 kW, that is its maximum draw. Since it is a PTC heater, named for its positive thermal coefficient of resistance (i.e., resistance increases upon heating), it's maximum draw quickly falls as the element heats up.

But 10 seconds is a nice approximation.

 

[NewTMSMan]

All that ever happens on today's Internet is this. Someone like me posts. The blogerati awakes. Alerted, someone has posted. If the post doesn't fit, noise is raised to a level that the post is eventually written off as "a joke". Drowned in other posts, the OP is beaten into submission.

The posts come from the faceless, who don't have enough conviction in what they write to use their real name. Who knows if they even have a car? All we know for sure is they're not in prison - there's no Internet connection in jail.

And yet people believe this. Decisions are made. It happens all day every day, a zillion times a day.

Things are really bad. Much worse than they appear.

Why did I do this. Back to therapy.

Peace and love,

Just curious what you expected exactly? You post on a Tesla Forum, where you already know people are big fans of the cars, a long list of grievances. Did you expect everyone to post back "Hey thanks man, you are right about everything"? Seems like you were looking for an argument.

TBH I have no idea why someone who lives in an area that gets a lot of snow would not have a second set of wheels and tires, not just tires. I live in northern NJ, which has much more mild winters than most of CO and I have a second set of wheels and tires for my M3P+ as well as my P100D S and my 100D X with appropriate snow tires. This is basically what most people posted that seems to have really bothered you. The rest seems to agree with you about wipers and service for the most part.

I will be the first to agree that Teslas are not perfect (you can find my own rants about my S and X from about a year ago), but TBH they are the best cars available now. Will Audi produce a better and trouble free EV? Who knows? No other car manufacturer seems to have an easy time matching Tesla right now.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

We have a camp in Maine, at the end of a dirt road on a pond. When you leave the pavement, there is a steep downslope for ~1/4 mile, then a steep upslope, before gradually dropping down to the lakeshore. When exiting, you have to do all that in reverse. (duh).

This time of year, it gets plowed, but it's really just packed ice with some sand over the top.

Anyway, we had to go up this past weekend to check on some work being done, and the Association's tractor was in a ditch when we got there (usually not a good sign)....so the road was only about halfway plowed, with no sand.

We did about 3/4 mile on plowed packed ice, and the last 3/4 mile on unplowed 3" of powder, on top of packed ice.....

The P3D- with the factory Michelins handled it like a champ. We got down to the house and our neighbor walked over and asked if we'd need any help getting back out. I just laughed.

I've set a driver profile in the car that contains all of my normal settings, except I can put the car into Chill and Low regen in one button push. Makes life a little easier in situations like that.

Got in and out of our dirt road with no real problems. The traction control clicked a few times on each incline, but that was about it. Next winter, though, I will be buying actual snow tires (Nokians or Blizzaks). The all-seasons are just "meh" in bad traction scenarios.

 

[DdotRoq]

The posts come from the faceless, who don't have enough conviction in what they write to use their real name. Who knows if they even have a car? All we know for sure is they're not in prison - there's no Internet connection in jail.
,

The majority of us have our cars in our avatar and have posted photos in this very forum. If that isn't enough, just Google our usernames. This is the exact reason we think you are a joke, because you are accusing members of a *Tesla forum* of not owning a car.

Dude... Come on.

 

[SammichLover]

Ah, I see. No. I'm suggesting that when the pack is new and rolls off the assembly line its nominal rated range would be 310 miles. Like every vehicle, range will change with condition, speed, temperature, etc. So even accounting for the initial degradation, there are people exceeding the 310 EPA rating regularly. And then there are those of us like me with the P3D in cold climates that will never ever hit 310 miles ever. But the pack's range as tested by EPA with their cycle is 310 miles, so that's what Tesla says. IMO, it's a meaningless number and eventually they'll just say "long range" and "short range" for their variants and no mention the EPA rated ranges in their literature.

Only you're dead wrong here because it is the number used by Tesla to report the charge in the battery when in the Distance display mode. It is how I know I battery capacity when full is, within about 242Wh, the same as the day I took delivery with 5 miles on the odometer.

If it wasn't the case that my battery hadn't measurably degraded then when I took the car to "full" charge, let it balance a day+, and then let it full charge again it would report less miles remaining.

I think 5% is exactly that. Negligible. The aero caps have an equal effect on range, and that's basically nothing. 5% is a rated 15 miles, or about 10 seconds of cabin heat.

5% is about 16 miles nominal, about 10 miles actual, and this does end up mattering when you drop 5% and 10% and suddenly you're around 200 miles maximum and holy crap maybe you don't make it home driving against the stiff wind.

 

[MARKM3]

The main reason I didn't buy the P3D+ is because they didn't have an all season tire offering at the time. Cost Tesla 10k from me.

EDIT: They still don't have an all season tire offering "facepalm"