M3 Performance Plus thoughts @ 14k miles

[spinbackwards]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.

I wanted to share one last post.

We have 14k miles on ours. I’m not sure we’ll buy another Tesla. We’ll see. Quite frankly if Audi caught up I’d look real hard at buying from them given our experience.

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

There's other things with the car that clearly show Tesla didn't do their homework, didn't spend near enough time testing in real world winter conditions.

All my issues being the case, I knew I was taking a chance. But I expected better. Still, I'm not selling the car. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Tesla.

Someone from here contacted me about buying a RWD 3. They said they plan on keeping their ICE AWD for snowy days. Here’s what I wrote to them.

Howdy,
There's a rumor Tesla is discontinuing the RWD version. So I'd be careful.

If you have a backup AWD, fine. But why not go for the AWD? I know it's more.

So are you fluent with EV's?

Do you get that the advertised range really isn't?

First, you never use 100% of the battery. So plan your range on using 80% of the battery. For the RWD, the real range (using 80%) is 211. Then discount it a little once the battery loses capacity. The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year. Now your range is more like 200.

Then factor in cold weather, wind, and road conditions. In the cold (less than 35 degrees) battery range takes a hit. For example yesterday I drove back and forth to Copper Mountain. 112 miles total. I used 189 rated miles due to the cold and snowy roads. So I was using 1.7 rated miles for each mile I drove.

Same thing with wet roads and wind.

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.

There's also some other gotchas you should be aware of. If your car ever needs body work, it could take a few months. I have a small dent that needs to be fixed. I started looking for repairs in January. The soonest I could get in was late March. Some shops were booked until June. The reason why is Tesla's are hard for a body shop to work on.

Tesla's service is getting better. But it's been painfully bad. My experience has been just so-so with them. Calling them is getting better. It used to be a waste of time.

Some of the tech just doesn't work right. For example the Auto Wipers just don't work. Surely that'll be fixed with a software update one of these days. But it sure is frustrating.

We bought ours because we care about the environment. And, we needed a new car. I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. Would I buy another one? An EV, yes. But maybe not from Tesla. We'll see. While they do some things great, there's a lot not to like about them.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

Also. Where do you live? Can you charge at home? If not, then don't buy one.

Good news is that charging at home works out to being way less than gas. Last night I went 112 miles in the cold and snow. I used 30 kWh, which is worse case. That's less than $3 bucks in electricity. The same trip would have cost me at least $10 in gas.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

 

[BrandonLive]

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

This isn’t a problem with Tesla, and is your own mistake for not researching this before buying. The same thing would happen with Audi, BMW, or any other performance vehicle that comes with summer tires. Summer tires *cannot* be used in snow or ice, and should not be used in the cold. The rubber turns very hard below 40-45F, and in the worst cases can actually crack. In fact, the new Michelins that Tesla uses are a little better at this than the Pirelli P-Zeros you get from Audi, as Michelin has started using multiple compounds in different parts of the tire to give better cold weather functionality. But they still absolutely cannot be used in snow or ice. That’s incredibly dangerous.

As a 7 time Audi owner, I can tell you that any of their performance cars or regular models with sports packages will come with summer tires in most locations. In some places like upstate NY they’re better about giving you literature with big scary warnings. But in other places like here in a Washington they don’t do that, and it’s on buyers and drivers to know what they have. If you buy this kind of car with these kinds of tires, you need a winter set or must use alternate transportation in freezing temps. Or, when you buy it, you special order different tire options (e.g. all seasons) from Tesla as I’ve heard some have done.

 

[sperkin]

Audio R8s are AWD and probably suck in the snow too. I'm not sure what the condition is like in CO but getting a high performance car is probably not best for snow. I drove my AWD with normal all weather tires to big bear in the snow without chains. Seems fine to me. Your 20s came with summer tires and 20 snow tires just dont have the teeth on the tread. They dont have the depth in the side walls.

I wish there are other real competitors out there so Tesla will make a better product. I agree the auto wiper sucks. Its shitty where I have to micro manage it while I drive because the skipping is so bad on Auto.

Right now, there isn't any fast chargers to go outside of the 300 mile radius. Even with CCS the price are very expensive compared to gas and superchargers. I was going to buy an I-Pace but the car can't go to SF from LA in a reasonable amount of time. Not sure if there's another EV I would buy. Tesla is putting out more Superchargers and the other car manufacturers are not doing anything. Maybe once Porchse builds a massive fast charging network, I would switch to the Taycan.

 

[StealthP3D]

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

You live in Colorado and you didn't already know that?

I bought my P3D- because it came with 18" wheels and the smaller brakes. I knew it would be seeing a lot of snow and didn't care about upgraded brakes (with AWD regen I need upgraded brakes like I need a device that dispenses warm shaving creme).

The car is awesome in the winter storms.

Take care!

 

[Matt L]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.

I wanted to share one last post.

We have 14k miles on ours. I’m not sure we’ll buy another Tesla. We’ll see. Quite frankly if Audi caught up I’d look real hard at buying from them given our experience.

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

There's other things with the car that clearly show Tesla didn't do their homework, didn't spend near enough time testing in real world winter conditions.

All my issues being the case, I knew I was taking a chance. But I expected better. Still, I'm not selling the car. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Tesla.

Someone from here contacted me about buying a RWD 3. They said they plan on keeping their ICE AWD for snowy days. Here’s what I wrote to them.

Howdy,
There's a rumor Tesla is discontinuing the RWD version. So I'd be careful.

If you have a backup AWD, fine. But why not go for the AWD? I know it's more.

So are you fluent with EV's?

Do you get that the advertised range really isn't?

First, you never use 100% of the battery. So plan your range on using 80% of the battery. For the RWD, the real range (using 80%) is 211. Then discount it a little once the battery loses capacity. The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year. Now your range is more like 200.

Then factor in cold weather, wind, and road conditions. In the cold (less than 35 degrees) battery range takes a hit. For example yesterday I drove back and forth to Copper Mountain. 112 miles total. I used 189 rated miles due to the cold and snowy roads. So I was using 1.7 rated miles for each mile I drove.

Same thing with wet roads and wind.

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.

There's also some other gotchas you should be aware of. If your car ever needs body work, it could take a few months. I have a small dent that needs to be fixed. I started looking for repairs in January. The soonest I could get in was late March. Some shops were booked until June. The reason why is Tesla's are hard for a body shop to work on.

Tesla's service is getting better. But it's been painfully bad. My experience has been just so-so with them. Calling them is getting better. It used to be a waste of time.

Some of the tech just doesn't work right. For example the Auto Wipers just don't work. Surely that'll be fixed with a software update one of these days. But it sure is frustrating.

We bought ours because we care about the environment. And, we needed a new car. I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. Would I buy another one? An EV, yes. But maybe not from Tesla. We'll see. While they do some things great, there's a lot not to like about them.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

Also. Where do you live? Can you charge at home? If not, then don't buy one.

Good news is that charging at home works out to being way less than gas. Last night I went 112 miles in the cold and snow. I used 30 kWh, which is worse case. That's less than $3 bucks in electricity. The same trip would have cost me at least $10 in gas.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

Just wow

 

[dww12]

Find a P3- owner that wants a P3+ and trade. You both will be happier.

 

[DrDabbles]

I know we went back and forth on your 20" tire thread, so I'll keep this one more civil than I got on that one.

I’m not posting here any longer.

That's too bad. But I'm guessing your responses haven't been very warm, and you're probably not getting the support from the community you want.

Quite frankly if Audi caught up I’d look real hard at buying from them given our experience.

I'll be interested in how that experience is in 5 years time. If you get the EV equivalent of the P3D or the RS series, though, you should expect to need to buy winter tires that are capable for where you live.

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.

As I said in the other thread, this isn't Tesla's problem. As the owner/operator you need to make sure you have the equipment for your conditions. Most of the population in the US are totally fine with "performance" winter tires. Where you life, they're dangerous in heavy conditions. Try buying an RS4 and driving it through the heavy snow with its performance tires on.

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true.

Please provide an example.

The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading

I fully agree that the "snow" videos on youtube are hilarious and pointless. They're testing in conditions that are laughable even for where I live, they're driving in contrived situations, not driving the way any sane person would on a normal road, etc. I've actually been thinking of making a real snow condition video of my P3D with several inches of uncleared, heavy snow on the roads, and driving through intersections that have been plowed very poorly. Driving through a 6-7 inch mound of sloppy snow is not like driving through the fluffy powder others have posted.

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.

Fully agreed. Why Tesla tried to use its vision system to detect precipitation rather than the sensor every other company uses is a complete mystery to me, and they need to cut that crap out immediately. Put a sensor in the front camera housing starting today, and stop wasting time teaching a computer what rain and snow look like. This was an utterly stupid decision.

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.

I didn't think the highways were that bad out there, but then I've only ever been to the greater Denver area, so I have no real experience. I think the claims Tesla has made are severely inflated by the community, and the seeming inability to tease details out of nuanced language. EAP is a driver assistance package and nothing more. It has major limitations pretty much everywhere in the country, so you need to be ready to take over at all times.

That said, it's still much better than other offerings from other manufacturers because other manufacturers aren't really offering anything of this nature.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.

This is based on the EPA testing cycles, which is a level playing field for all manufacturers and allows customers to compare them. Just like ICE vehicles. Your Audi might say it gets 25 MPG but when you drive it, then it gets 19-20 MPG. That's a fact of life for every car, because the national test programs don't mimic your driving habits.

For reference, there are people in flatter areas of the world where it's warm most of the year, and they're getting 310 and even further with their cars. You and I will never see that range.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.

Pretty much every car comes with it at this point. I got a terrible Nissan from Enterprise rental and it had TACC.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

How do you live in the mountains, but you've never had frozen handles before? My Subaru handles have been frozen dozens of times. And remember the olden days before remote unlock was a thing and you'd have to carry around a bottle of lock de-icer so you could open your car without snapping your key off?

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.

All technology constantly improves. ICE vehicles improve efficiency too. Also, you shouldn't say "for sure" when you don't actually know. That's misleading at best, and a lie at worst. You're complaining about Tesla being misleading, but you've done the same thing.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

So you bought the right equipment, and the car works fine. But you're mad about that. How do you round this square peg, exactly?

Anyway, good luck in the future.

 

[Birdman325]

Didn’t the OP say that he thinks the car is not safe with the “stock 20” wheels and snow tires”. I assumed this meant that he changed out the 20” summers that come with that package, mounted 20” winters and is still not happy with the winter performance?

 

[ewoodrick]

Howdy,

I’m not posting here any longer.
Hit and run?

I’m still really sore about having to buy 18” wheels and new snow tires just to feel safe. My car with 20” wheels and snow tires just isn’t acceptable up here. And if anyone doesn't believe me, I'll put the wheels and tires back on and prove it. Good news is now that I have 18’s with Nokians, the car feels good.
You went with performance wheels and tires and don't feel that the were best in snow? Must of made a mistake

Tesla makes blanket statements about its AWD that just aren’t true. The videos you see on the Internet, Tesla's in the snow, are about as useful as making a decision based on a snapshot in time. Who cares what a car does in a snowy field with no one around, or in the snow when there's not a car in the other lane on the highway going 60 when it's big time winter? Not me. No one else should, either. These videos are misleading.
I hope that you aren't trying to use the autopilot on roads where the lines are marginal and the conditions are marginal

The wipers not working is also a sore spot. It’s an expensive car. The Auto Wipers just don’t work. It pisses me off. And it’s dangerous, having to fiddle with the wipers in the snow.
It's a personal thing, they work great for me, and they are expected to be changed in a not so distant upgrade

AP up here is so-so. It’s fine as long as you’re not going around a bend with a car next to you. I don’t know. Maybe here in the mountains lane lines are narrower? I think Tesla also makes claims here as well, that are a stretch.
Works quite well around here on narrow roads. It's nice that the car actually stays in the middle of the road. But hey, remember when you enabled it, it said that it was BETA software? It is constantly getting better.

I think Tesla isn't doing anyone any good advertising that their cars get 310 miles range. It's misleading.
That goes for every car out there. I've commonly got better than 310 miles range. Don't assume that winter is the best numbers, At least you don't need specifically tuned engines for high altitudes.

TACC works good. But new Subarus come with this same tech.
Subaru, Toyota, Nissan and others offer it as well.

Last night at Copper Mountain was my first experience with the car handles being stuck. Luckily, not stuck to the point where the door wouldn't open. What were they thinking?

Interesting concept. The Model 3 is the first car where the doors haven't opened with winter precipitation? I could have sworn I've driven other rental cars in cold areas where they stuck

There's other things with the car that clearly show Tesla didn't do their homework, didn't spend near enough time testing in real world winter conditions.
Sounds as if you may be a Subaru fan. They work hard to work in high altitude winters. But many other auto makers don't.

All my issues being the case, I knew I was taking a chance. But I expected better. Still, I'm not selling the car. But I'm not sure I'd buy another Tesla.

Someone from here contacted me about buying a RWD 3. They said they plan on keeping their ICE AWD for snowy days. Here’s what I wrote to them.

Howdy,
There's a rumor Tesla is discontinuing the RWD version. So I'd be careful.
No, not the case

If you have a backup AWD, fine. But why not go for the AWD? I know it's more.

So are you fluent with EV's?

Do you get that the advertised range really isn't?
Yes, like all cars, you may get better, you may get worse, and in colder temperatures, you can drop it by 30%. (still reach 310, but at a slower speed).

First, you never use 100% of the battery. So plan your range on using 80% of the battery. For the RWD, the real range (using 80%) is 211. Then discount it a little once the battery loses capacity. The battery will lose 5% of its capacity in the first year. Now your range is more like 200.
Pretty much like a gas car. And no, the battery doesn't loose 5% in the first year. I had a 2015 Leaf and it didn't loose that much in 3 years.

Then factor in cold weather, wind, and road conditions. In the cold (less than 35 degrees) battery range takes a hit. For example yesterday I drove back and forth to Copper Mountain. 112 miles total. I used 189 rated miles due to the cold and snowy roads. So I was using 1.7 rated miles for each mile I drove.
Pretty close to that 30% I just mentioned.

Same thing with wet roads and wind.
Not quite, but these impact any cars as well. Once you learn to stop focusing on the battery range and loose the "range anxiety" this pretty much becomes nothing to worry about. I honestly rarely drive the full range in a week, let alone a day.

You should also know that Tesla just acquired a battery company, here's the link:
Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200 million

What this means is that the battery storage and performance will surely increase -- soon. Probably not in the 019 model year, but for sure in the 020 model year. So you may want to wait.
and wait, and wait, and wait. I assume that you've never bought a computer or a modern phone, because technology is getting better. Even batteries in phones and computers are getting better.

There's also some other gotchas you should be aware of. If your car ever needs body work, it could take a few months. I have a small dent that needs to be fixed. I started looking for repairs in January. The soonest I could get in was late March. Some shops were booked until June. The reason why is Tesla's are hard for a body shop to work on.
Same problem with most new to the market cars, inventories haven't caught up

Tesla's service is getting better. But it's been painfully bad. My experience has been just so-so with them. Calling them is getting better. It used to be a waste of time.

Some of the tech just doesn't work right. For example the Auto Wipers just don't work. Surely that'll be fixed with a software update one of these days. But it sure is frustrating.

We bought ours because we care about the environment. And, we needed a new car. I wasn't going to buy another ICE car. Would I buy another one? An EV, yes. But maybe not from Tesla. We'll see. While they do some things great, there's a lot not to like about them.

For example we bought the Performance+ version. The car is simply not safe with the stock 20" wheels and snow tires. I had to buy 18" wheels and new snow tires. It pissed me off. But now the car goes good in the snow.

Oh, okay, you just blew a lot of your range with your decision on car to buy. A performance and dual will definitely reduce your range. That's indeed something that Tesla tends to hide. But the reality is that even the P3D can hit 310, it's just a lot easier in the long rage single motor.

Also. Where do you live? Can you charge at home? If not, then don't buy one.
Is a 120V plug available? That satisfies the need of many people

Good news is that charging at home works out to being way less than gas. Last night I went 112 miles in the cold and snow. I used 30 kWh, which is worse case. That's less than $3 bucks in electricity. The same trip would have cost me at least $10 in gas.

Anything else I can help with let me know.

Peace and love,

 

[DrDabbles]

Didn’t the OP say that he thinks the car is not safe with the “stock 20” wheels and snow tires”. I assumed this meant that he changed out the 20” summers that come with that package, mounted 20” winters and is still not happy with the winter performance?

That's exactly the case, yes. The original tires thread is here M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains The title of the thread was changed IIRC because it started out with something like "Red brakes unsafe" or some over the top claim like that.

He has several threads like that he started, and it's clear he hasn't been happy since the beginning. That's unfortunate, but this was pretty predictable from Tesla's growth. You start off selling to people that learn every detail about the car early on, and then you end up as a mass market vehicle selling to people that don't seem to research much before jumping in.

He was very unhappy with Tesla's 20" winter tire offering, which I completely agree is not a very good tire if you find yourself driving through snow regularly. A dusting? Sure. Wet highways and cold temperatures? Fine. Deep powder or slushy roads? Absolutely not. Tesla's tire focuses on having a higher speed rating and being more efficient on clear roads, which is how 90% of all driving in the world is done.

He did post a follow-up thread when he got his 18" setup, which you can find here Model 3 Performance - Colorado Mountains - 18 setup I read that thread as much more of a "Oh, yeah, these tires are much better, I should have listened to you all in the first thread. But I'm still annoyed I had to buy them, because Tesla should have known I'd try to drive my P3D in Colorado, so this is still their fault."

 

[Jtt777]

this stuff about complaining about the 20" tires and winter performance is just plain ignorance. if you want to drive in the snow, you need to get the right setup, period. Anyone should be able to look at the tires they sell with the performance edition and realize these are not what I should get for the winter.

 

[12yan]

this stuff about complaining about the 20" tires and winter performance is just plain ignorance.

Maybe but I also think the “need” for 18/19 inch rims and max snow tires is overstated. For most people wanting a high performance sports car - which P3D+ clearly is - winter performance tires are the way to go. If you regularly drive on uncleared roads with deep snow then obviously not ...but that’s a small fraction of people. I’m very happy with the recommend Sottozeros in NYC commuting ~40 miles north.

 

[kbecks13]

I will admit though, as someone in SoCal who barely ever uses them...the autowipers do leave a lot to be desired. That said, it's really not a huge deal breaker IMO since none of my previous cars had auto wipers either

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Maybe but I also think the “need” for 18/19 inch rims and max snow tires is overstated. For most people wanting a high performance sports car - which P3D+ clearly is - winter performance tires are the way to go. If you regularly drive on uncleared roads with deep snow then obviously not ...but that’s a small fraction of people. I’m very happy with the recommend Sottozeros in NYC commuting ~40 miles north.

For myself the desire for 18/19 inch rims is less about snow, but all the other crap that comes with it like potholes. There is also the higher efficiency of 18/19inch wheels to consider.

Potholes are the biggest reason for me as I keep seeing people with the 20inch bent rims. Apparently the P3D+ has soft rims.

So I'll likely switch to 19" for most of the year despite my love for the looks of the 20inch rims.

 

[StealthP3D]

So I'll likely switch to 19" for most of the year despite my love for the looks of the 20inch rims.

There's nothing wrong with the 18" rims. I think the Aero's look good with or without the covers on them and, if you don't like them there are some nice aftermarket wheels available. But the 18" Aeros are actually quite a bargain, light and strong. You might have a hard time matching the strength, weight, and price in the aftermarket, particularly if you can pick up a nice set of basically new 18" Aero take-offs.

Quality tires are much more affordable in 18" and there's not so much sidewall in a 235/45/18 that your cornering will be impacted as long as you stick with a good performance tire.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There's nothing wrong with the 18" rims. I think the Aero's look good with or without the covers on them and, if you don't like them there are some nice aftermarket wheels available. But the 18" Aeros are actually quite a bargain, light and strong. You might have a hard time matching the strength, weight, and price in the aftermarket, particularly if you can pick up a nice set of basically new 18" Aero take-offs.

Quality tires are much more affordable in 18" and there's not so much sidewall in a 235/45/18 that your cornering will be impacted as long as you stick with a good performance tire.

Oh, I meant I'll likely switch to 18"/19" rims. I haven't decided which ones I'll get.

I can't go with the Aero's because I have the P3D+, and those don't fit.

 

[DrDabbles]

Maybe but I also think the “need” for 18/19 inch rims and max snow tires is overstated. For most people wanting a high performance sports car - which P3D+ clearly is - winter performance tires are the way to go. If you regularly drive on uncleared roads with deep snow then obviously not ...but that’s a small fraction of people. I’m very happy with the recommend Sottozeros in NYC commuting ~40 miles north.

OP lives in Colorado, so it's reasonable to need serious winter tires. I live in NH, I bought the P3D, but I also know that "performance" snow tires aren't for serious snow. Some people have the money, but don't quite understand trade-offs like wheel size and tire sidewall versus snow handling. He was angry that he had to research what equipment to use in his specific conditions that that Tesla didn't just offer a one-stop solution for him.

For what it's worth, Subaru doesn't even offer a winter tire option for my STI, so the initial complaint was nonsense in my opinion. But to each their own.

 

[StealthP3D]

Some people have the money, but don't quite understand trade-offs like wheel size and tire sidewall versus snow handling. He was angry that he had to research what equipment to use in his specific conditions that that Tesla didn't just offer a one-stop solution for him.

Exactly! But I think it's more a matter of the 20" wheels coupled with the short sidewall that was 90% of the problem. People think since the tread width and diameter is basically the same, it should react the same on snow and ice as an 18" wheel/tire with the same model tire. But there are some things people forget to consider.

The 20" setup is a LOT heavier than an 18" setup with much more rotational inertia. This is even more problematic on ice than on a racetrack because it reduces the effectiveness of the traction control and ABS systems. If you think about it I think you'll understand why and the difference is not subtle.

Most people use their heavier "junker" rims as their winter rims but I always mount my winter tires on my lightest, strongest rims for better performance on ice.

 

[DrDabbles]

Exactly! But I think it's more a matter of the 20" wheels coupled with the short sidewall that was 90% of the problem. People think since the tread width and diameter is basically the same, it should react the same on snow and ice as an 18" wheel/tire with the same model tire. But there are some things people forget to consider.

The 20" setup is a LOT heavier than an 18" setup with much more rotational inertia. This is even more problematic on ice than on a racetrack because it reduces the effectiveness of the traction control and ABS systems. If you think about it I think you'll understand why and the difference is not subtle.

Most people use their heavier "junker" rims as their winter rims but I always mount my winter tires on my lightest, strongest rims for better performance on ice.

This, among several other reasons, is why I chose an 18" wheel and studded Nokian Hakka 9s. I'm willing to trade dry road traction on a normal day for ice traction on the worst days. Smaller 18" wheels meant larger sidewalls for more deflection, which ruins daily driving a bit but vastly improves snow handling.

To me, if you don't already know these types of things, a "performance" edition is a complete waste. I'm sure once the summer comes here in North America and some of these people turn on track mode on the streets, we'll get access to a large secondary market for parts, though. So not all is lost.

 

[StealthP3D]

Smaller 18" wheels meant larger sidewalls for more deflection, which ruins daily driving a bit but vastly improves snow handling.

I know what you're talking about but I think you might be attributing the loss of handling to the aspect ratio of the tire when it's primarily due to the kind of winter tire it is. If you buy some good performance tires in 235/45/18 and run them at around 46 psi, I think you will be super pleasantly surprised how much corner grip they return. With modern tire construction, it's not necessary to go super low profile to get exceptional handling and road-holding. On a real road, with real pavement imperfections, you will actually get better road-holding than the slim profile of the 20" wheels allow.

I think Tesla just offered the 20" wheels because they knew some people were going to fit 20" wheels on there anyway and they wanted the extra revenue that could generate. People make funny decisions sometimes and I'm not sure if it's because they don't know any better or they just don't care.