M3P+ Close But Not Quite There for Track/Performance Use

[Michael2000]

I've not heard of any Corvettes "melting brake pads". Street pads are a compromise for the street, so you can always do better with any car with race pads. Let's use the Camaro ZL1 as a benchmark. Chevy spent a lot of time making sure it cooled properly for track use. GM even has track prep owners manuals for Camaros and Corvettes. Motor Trend couldn't get either the manual or automatic cars to overheat with their pro racer Randy Pobst. Tesla needs to do what Chevy did.

Sure, you can over drive any car, but the Model 3 Performance is at an order of magnitude behind most track oriented cars. It's done in three or four laps, and that's coming from a Tesla engineer.

In one track test, the pro driver got a brake overheat warning, due to the stock stability control.

Like I said, I don't think the car is that far off other than the darn stability control and cooling.

 

[cab]

I've not heard of any Corvettes "melting brake pads". Street pads are a compromise for the street, so you can always do better with any car with race pads. Let's use the Camaro ZL1 as a benchmark. Chevy spent a lot of time making sure it cooled properly for track use. GM even has track prep owners manuals for Camaros and Corvettes. Motor Trend couldn't get either the manual or automatic cars to overheat with their pro racer Randy Pobst. Tesla needs to do what Chevy did.

Sure, you can over drive any car, but the Model 3 Performance is at an order of magnitude behind most track oriented cars. It's done in three or four laps, and that's coming from a Tesla engineer.

In one track test, the pro driver got a brake overheat warning, due to the stock stability control.

Like I said, I don't think the car is that far off other than the darn stability control and cooling.

Of course in my latest issue of Motor Trend, Randy compares a 911 GT2 RS (I think) with the Vette ZR1 on the track, and seems to indicate the Vette is not pulling full power (he surmises it is due to heat) on the straights (where it should be King). It is also worth noting that cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Vette Z06 really are much more dedicated to the track and have more significant compromises as daily drivers.

Still, to your point, Tesla opened to the door to BMW M3 comparisons and that brings track-worthiness to the table as a topic of discussion and comparison. I agree with your assessment in general however...Model 3 still has a ways to go here.

 

[n2mb_racing]

The problem is that cooling an EV is much harder. ICE cars run their radiators at about 220f, so you get lots of cooling with ambient air at even 90 degrees. An EV needs to keep the battery below about 110f, which is much harder to do when the air is 90f. The small temperature difference means radiators don't work well, so an air conditioner is needed, which has very limited capacity.

Anyway, we're going to need some creative solutions .

 

[Nocturnal]

OP. I don't consider the 3 to be a track car, but I also wouldn't say that most people buy a brand new commercial vehicle as a "track car" either. As it stands the P3D is still a fun car to take to the occasional event. Yeah my car goes limp on lap 4, but meh, I'm not trying to break any records.

Anyway, we're going to need some creative solutions .

I figure just setup a system to discharge compressed CO2 or NO2 onto the coolant lines. Some basic programming an a standalone controller should work. "If coolant temp is > X and system is "on" then spray for .2 seconds. Repeat"

I've not heard of any Corvettes "melting brake pads". Street pads are a compromise for the street, so you can always do better with any car with race pads. Let's use the Camaro ZL1 as a benchmark. Chevy spent a lot of time making sure it cooled properly for track use. GM even has track prep owners manuals for Camaros and Corvettes. Motor Trend couldn't get either the manual or automatic cars to overheat with their pro racer Randy Pobst. Tesla needs to do what Chevy did.

Sure, you can over drive any car, but the Model 3 Performance is at an order of magnitude behind most track oriented cars. It's done in three or four laps, and that's coming from a Tesla engineer.

In one track test, the pro driver got a brake overheat warning, due to the stock stability control.

Like I said, I don't think the car is that far off other than the darn stability control and cooling.

Track oriented cars these days, such as the Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, M3, 911 etc., don't overheat on the track. Those days are over with their performance versions. They have bigger brakes, trans coolers, diff coolers, engine oil coolers, bigger radiators. You can't run consistent laps if your Model 3 P overheats in 3-4 laps.

Tell that to the Z06 owners that sued Chevy.
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/02/corvette-z06-owners-slap-gm-fourth-class-action-limp-mode/

 

[brianman]

I have read every article and viewed every video I can find on the P3D+ to try to decide if it is suitable for track/performance use. I was interested in buying one. My conclusion is it is not quite there yet. It's a little too early.

...

I could do the same thing and conclude that Tesla went out of business 3 years ago. YMMV.

For those that are interested in driving an electric vehicle on the track, I don't know of any real competitors for Tesla at this point -- at least at volume and priced for mortals.

After 5 years of driving Model S performance flavors in autocross and lapping events, the Model 3 Performance is a breath of fresh air. Yes, there's a limiter; but it's nothing compared to the 87.5% power reduction of the Model S limiter. The weight difference is definitely something you feel on the track. The suspension feels better. The nannies are less intrusive. Sessions of 20-25 minutes at speed are viable in the 3, whereas (at best) the S only offered 8 minutes.

I look forward to see what the official Track Mode offers when pushed to customers, vs. a pre-release version to VIP reviewers.

 

[alsetym]

I'll give props where it is due. The1le is a pretty good package and (if bought used 10 years from now when there is no value left in the car) would make a great track car. A ZR1 1le STARTS at $72kUS, but probably sucks to drive TO the track, at least by your average consumer's standards. So no, the P3D is not going to be a track killer, not without a real track package that actually compromises something of value (frunk seems like easy pickings to pack more cooling).

I do hear you though, that if Elon is going to talk smack about a BMW M3, which is a bit on an icon, he better deliver or he'll bring it on himself. I remain undecided until I see the track mode

 

[wallet.dat]

The latest test by Motor Trend from last week (?) had the P3D with updated track mode + Michelin Pilot Sport Cup2s + Brembo brake pads, turning in lap times over 7.5 sec quicker than the Alfa Romeo Guilia quadrifoglio :O

Not exactly stock, but that's still a huge improvement from just tires and pads (and Track Mode calibration).

Edit: Link to article https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...erformance-track-mode-release-version-review/

 

[Vines]

The latest test by Motor Trend from last week (?) had the P3D with updated track mode + Michelin Pilot Sport Cup2s + Brembo brake pads, turning in lap times over 7.5 sec quicker than the Alfa Romeo Guilia quadrifoglio :O

Not exactly stock, but that's still a huge improvement from just tires and pads (and Track Mode calibration).

Edit: Link to article Tesla Model 3 Performance Track Mode (Release Version): Ludicrous Handling - Motor Trend

Check your math, its 1.29 seconds according to the article. Still a good long time though on a racetrack.

 

[heems]

“What no one is quite saying out loud, though, is that a 1:21.49 snips a lifetime-like 1.29 seconds from Randy's recent lap in the Alfa Romeo GiuliaQuadrifoglio. The new time essentially matches a 2016 Porsche Cayman GT4 and even beats a former Best Driver's Car winner, the 2011 Ferrari458 Italia (1:22.30). Until the new BMW M3 shows up, that perches the Model 3 atop the podium as the world's quickest sport sedan—at least around this track.”

Are we there now?

 

[MP3Mike]

Are we there now?

It just isn't with stock wheels, tires, or brake pads...

 

[heems]

It just isn't with stock wheels, tires, or brake pads...

Do you track regularly or know people that do? What percentage use their 100% stock cars without a single change? Sounds like we are being picky just for the sake of it. Maybe the fastest sedan in the world on a famous track is too much to digest.

 

[MP3Mike]

Do you track regularly or know people that do? What percentage use their 100% stock cars without a single change? Sounds like we are being picky just for the sake of it. Maybe the fastest sedan in the world on a famous track is too much to digest.

I understand that but my understanding was that the Alfa Romeo was stock. How would it perform if you spent the same amount in upgrades for it?

 

[Gavyne]

I understand that but my understanding was that the Alfa Romeo was stock. How would it perform if you spent the same amount in upgrades for it?

That's the thing, Alfa's "stock" happens to be track tires Pirelli P Zero Corsas.

Ideally Tesla would come out with a Performance++ package that bundles Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s and Brembo brakes.

 

[wallet.dat]

Check your math, its 1.29 seconds according to the article. Still a good long time though on a racetrack.

Woops, I misread that 1.29 as 1:29 total lap time

 

[Nocturnal]

That's the thing, Alfa's "stock" happens to be track tires Pirelli P Zero Corsas.

Ideally Tesla would come out with a Performance++ package that bundles Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s and Brembo brakes.

Yeah, "stock" tires doesn't mean much. A tire is a perfectly acceptable swap and still be "stock". It is a consumable after all.

Now that perf package is free, they just need to bring it back.

 

[wallet.dat]

It just isn't with stock wheels, tires, or brake pads...

I'm curious to see if the Alfa could make up 1.29 seconds with a tire and brake pad swap. That's a lot of time to make up, considering the OEM P Zeros are very good tires to begin with.

 

[dfwatt]

I have read every article and viewed every video I can find on the P3D+ to try to decide if it is suitable for track/performance use. I was interested in buying one. My conclusion is it is not quite there yet. It's a little too early.

1) It doesn't have enough cooling capacity for the batteries and motors for sustained performance use. Track Mode is just trying to create a heat sink by precooling the system that is quickly overcome in a few laps, resulting in power being pulled back. There have been some supercharged ICE cars with the same issue with intercoolers, and they just plain had to get to work on more cooling capacity. Tesla needs to do the same. You should be able to go out on a hot day, and there should be plenty of steady state capacity to dissipate all the heat generated.

2) Track Mode is not a substitute for just having a stability control system that you can turn off. Almost every performance car, and even many non-performance cars have the ability to turn off the stability control. Why not the Model 3? When I read that a seasoned race car driver, Randy Pobst, went off the Willow Streets track in a P3D+ in Track Mode at 90 mph, a mere mortal like me has no chance. I don't need a stability control system to trip me up. I need one I can turn off. and drive within my and the vehicle's limits as I do in other cars.

3) They need to have the ability to turn off regenerative braking on the throttle pedal, instead of increasing it as they did with Track Mode. You can't effectively and smoothly drive one pedal on a track. That's ridiculous. This is another item that tripped up Randy Pobst.

After reading all these report, I get the impression that the people designing the P3D+ have never driven on a track or even aggressively on a back road. It seems like they are trying to over engineer the software so the car will drive itself, and then under engineer the mechanicals.

I see a lot of potential, though. I'm optimistic for the future.

I guess I just don't understand how a street car's lack of optimization to be run hot lap after hot lap on a racetrack without running into any trouble is either news, a sign of poor or suboptimal design, or, for that matter, any version of a surprise. As many have already pointed out, there are no sports sedans in the Model 3 class that you can just beat on for hours on the track without getting into serious overheating, boiling and glazing up the brakes, trashing the tires, etc. These are not designed for tracks, they are designed for streets. And if one became available that was designed for the former over the latter, I doubt I would want to drive one of those race track Teslas as a daily driver on the street.

Design compromises of these kinds are 'baked-in' and can't really be easily undone.

 

[dfwatt]

I'm curious to see if the Alfa could make up 1.29 seconds with a tire and brake pad swap. That's a lot of time to make up, considering the OEM P Zeros are very good tires to begin with.

It's already had a virtually track tire advantage in that comparo. So, could just harder brake pads close 1.3 seconds? Hard to know, but I doubt it.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I have read every article and viewed every video I can find on the P3D+ to try to decide if it is suitable for track/performance use. I was interested in buying one. My conclusion is it is not quite there yet. It's a little too early.

1) It doesn't have enough cooling capacity for the batteries and motors for sustained performance use. Track Mode is just trying to create a heat sink by precooling the system that is quickly overcome in a few laps, resulting in power being pulled back. There have been some supercharged ICE cars with the same issue with intercoolers, and they just plain had to get to work on more cooling capacity. Tesla needs to do the same. You should be able to go out on a hot day, and there should be plenty of steady state capacity to dissipate all the heat generated.

2) Track Mode is not a substitute for just having a stability control system that you can turn off. Almost every performance car, and even many non-performance cars have the ability to turn off the stability control. Why not the Model 3? When I read that a seasoned race car driver, Randy Pobst, went off the Willow Streets track in a P3D+ in Track Mode at 90 mph, a mere mortal like me has no chance. I don't need a stability control system to trip me up. I need one I can turn off. and drive within my and the vehicle's limits as I do in other cars.

3) They need to have the ability to turn off regenerative braking on the throttle pedal, instead of increasing it as they did with Track Mode. You can't effectively and smoothly drive one pedal on a track. That's ridiculous. This is another item that tripped up Randy Pobst.

After reading all these report, I get the impression that the people designing the P3D+ have never driven on a track or even aggressively on a back road. It seems like they are trying to over engineer the software so the car will drive itself, and then under engineer the mechanicals.

I see a lot of potential, though. I'm optimistic for the future.

Fyi, they hired Randy Pobst and fixed the code that made Randy miss a turn. The track mode software now being run in Model 3s delivers great lap times. See https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...erformance-track-mode-release-version-review/

 

[Daniel in SD]

Race pads probably only improve consistency and how many laps you can do before the brakes fade. They’re no going to make much difference in the fastest possible time.

That's the thing, Alfa's "stock" happens to be track tires Pirelli P Zero Corsas.

Ideally Tesla would come out with a Performance++ package that bundles Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2s and Brembo brakes.

It already has Brembo brakes doesn’t it? Needs carbon ceramic brakes. The Alfa has optional carbon ceramic brakes which you can beat on lap after lap. I’m sure Tesla could sell a $10k P++ package.