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Market politics

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Lessmog, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. johnnybgood888

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    Agreed, but what one department of NY Times or WaPo writes about should not taint another department. They are ran by different people with different motivations. Both their politics and national news desks have multiple Pulitzer to their names, which demonstrates a level of journalistic integrity and prowess and therefore earned trust. I doubt their auto news desks are held in similar regards.
     
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  2. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    It doesn't make them anything, it simply points out how off the rails Trump is when his base can't even support him.
     
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  3. traxila

    traxila Member

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    All news is propaganda. Everyone has an agenda. The difference is that some create fake stories. Others report on and frame things that actually happened. Then of course you have hybrids....

    Hard to be happy with any news sources nowadays. Maybe we should remove the corrosive influence of advertising dollars and hidden agendas.

    :p:D:p:D:p:Do_O

    In other news, Satan offically filed a heating complaint the in the Universal Housing Court today. His main complaint was the lack of heat and presence of great ice sheets in his hometown of hell.
     
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  4. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Member

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    Sometimes the actual truth can even be nowhere near where either side is portraying...
     
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  5. BioSehnsucht

    BioSehnsucht Model 3 LR

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    Well, there's Sinclair which is in some ways far more dangerous than Fox. Fox you either trust or you don't but at least their bias (or lack thereof depending on your perspective - you could substitute MSNBC for Fox above depending on your perspective) is clear and present, but when your local news station is feeding you distortions or lies as if they were real stories, it can slip by the radar. Local news is generally considered / expected to be unbiased (beyond being biased in favor of their locality), as they don't typically have any political affiliations.

    List of stations owned or operated by Sinclair Broadcast Group - Wikipedia

    Sinclair Made Dozens of Local News Anchors Recite the Same Script

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2018/04/02/get-to-know-sinclair-broadcast-group-the-conservative-local-news-giant-with-a-growing-reach/

    Even the guy who used to be President & COO of News Corp said it was "Insidious"

    Sinclair airs politically slanted pieces like this and this, and pretends they're local segments.

    The real danger in Sinclair Broadcast’s ‘fake news’ scandal

    (bolding mine)

    We can disagree on whether a clearly left or right organization is more or less biased than the other. But at least Fox / MSNBC / etc are clearly what they are. Sinclair is a symptom of a deeper corruption of the media, that is harder to see if not for their lazy lack of foresight to send the same script to every station (had they changed them up to avoid avoid similarities, it would have gone unnoticed).

    We really need a clear separation between factual news, editorial/opinion on the news, and "entertainment" (which is how anyone can get away with lying and/or being intentionaly misleading). And the lines between these should not be allowed to be blurred. Freedom of the press and the first amendment are important, but they're both being abused to damage our democracy.
     
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  6. traxila

    traxila Member

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    Sinclair is definitely among the worst. The word to use here is pernicious.
     
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  7. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    I'd ask that you expand your definition of money. You look at someone's net worth before they enter public service, as they serve and when they exit (and perhaps even a bit of time after). If your worth increases due to any element of your public service, you go to jail. Trump would not have gotten within a country mile of politics.
     
  8. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    I've met a lot of people in my life. I've formed an opinion about them while interacting and, for the most part, I get it right. Sometimes I get surprised and, when I do, I try to learn from the experience.

    I have no reason to believe my consumption of media is, or should be, any different. I am responsible for my intake and how that intake is digested. I do not watch FAUX if only for the camera trying to upskirt some hot blonde in between two dweebs. Not my scene dude.
     
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  9. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    I pay attention to a wide variety of news from different sources. I often listen to NPR in the car. The local station has BBC news a couple of times a day and listen if I happen to be out then. All Things Considered is OK, but not quite as solid IMO. The BBC also does a better job of covering the entire world and US news in general tends to be very US-centric. I read a wide variety of news online checking in on news across the entire spectrum. I have even skimmed some extreme right sites from time to time just to see what they are saying.

    I don't watch much news, but I do catch some British comedy shows that talk about politics. It's very interesting to see what a different culture is saying about the US. I also often watch Rachel Maddow because she does go the extra mile to get the facts right. I disagree with her sometimes when she starts opining, but she is one of the most accurate news people on TV when reporting the facts.

    As I said earlier, MSNBC and CNN have a lot of opinion on air, especially in prime time. But there is an effort to report the facts, then they get various people on to interpret the facts. If I sift the opinions from the fact part of the programs, the fact parts, while not perfect, are not that bad. The opinion part is something else. I do wish there would be some delineation between the fact part and the opinion part like news programs had to do back when the Fairness Doctrine was there.

    Fox is a different animal. They will show news clips deliberately edited to support their story, even if the clip tells the opposite of what actually happened. One example was when Hillary Clinton told people in Appalachia she was going to replace coal jobs with 21st century jobs. All Fox showed was her saying coal jobs were going away. I also remember an Obama appointee who was forced out of her job when Fox aired something she said in a speech out of context over and over again.

    Fox also selectively tells certain stories for political significance and then drops them with no comment as soon as they aren't relevant anymore. The Benghazi committee in the House is one example. They went on and on and from Fox's coverage you'd think it was a Watergate scale scandal, but when Hillary lost the election, the committee disbanded with a thin report saying they found squat and Fox didn't say boo about it.

    Up until Trump's election, various right wing outlets including Fox as well as Rush Limbaugh and others would go on and on about main stream media bias if other news outlets didn't bend over backwards to try and cast the Republican/Democratic divide as at least two groups equally nuts and candidates as two sides of one coin when one was obviously incompetent or sounding like a loon and the other could actually make sense. CNN especially fell for this hard.

    I'm not coming from the left, I actually started right of center. My family is all Republican and my father has always been very up on politics. My parents always talked about how the Bay Area elites went out of their way to get Nixon and most other presidents had been guilty of pretty much the same. But aside from the Nixon believer thing, they were otherwise Eisenhower Republicans. Generally somewhat fiscally conservative, within reason and socially libertarian. My father actually encouraged my sister to achieve more than he did me and she became a petroleum Geologist.

    In the 1980s I saw the corruption creeping into the party. I wasn't aware of what Lee Atwater was going until after he was dead, but I could see the truth distortion field he created. The Republicans began then shifting from governing to just winning elections with no thoughts to actually governing responsibly. I also saw the party begin to ratchet to the right under me.

    I left the Republicans behind in the late 80s. My father, who didn't see the corruption, beat on me until 2016 about how I had abandoned the party, but I was on my own path. Through the 90s I was extremely independent, but as the country ratcheted to the right, the edges of the Democratic party started lining up with my own politics and the Republican party went from distasteful to dangerously mad. So I started voting Democratic most of the time around 2000.

    I remember a segment on MSNBC where Rachel Maddow went through all the things Eisenhower stood for and how that contrasts with the modern Republican party. At the end she declared she was an Eisenhower Republican (her stated political beliefs have a big overlap with the Eisenhower Republican positions). I've always been one. It's just that anyone who actually believes the same things the Eisenhower Republicans did and actually walks the talk is now a moderate Democrat. That's how much the political spectrum has shifted over the last 60 years.

    I say all this to point out that I'm not some extreme lefty trashing right wing media because it doesn't fit my bias. I'm quick to call BS on MSNBC or CNN or anyone else when they cross the line too. The average news outlet probably gets at least a few things factually wrong a day. Most of those errors are not substantive to the story, but they make maybe a few serious mistakes a week. Most of the time they are quick to issue retractions when they realize their mistake.

    Fox News makes substantive factual errors much more frequently and only issues retractions when pressure requires them to and only in the most quiet way possible.

    A few years ago someone did a study on how many facts about American politics people could get right and correlated that with where people got their news. Fox News viewers got more facts wrong than people who did not pay attention to any political news. It is only one study, I would like to see it repeated by someone else, but I wasn't terribly surprised by the results.

    The WSJ is a mixed bag. I did subscribe some years back and their reporting was very good quality, though always with a business oriented slant (not R or D political, more pro-business than anything else). The editorial page was a mixed bag 25 years ago, but it became a right wing screed machine at some point in the last couple of decades (though this was happening before the News Corp purchase). The editorial page now mostly echoes the views of Fox.

    John Oliver had a great piece on Sinclair back in 2017:


    The Constitution protects news media, which is a good thing, but we need a definition of what is news and what is propaganda or opinion and the latter should not be labeled news. However I don't see that happening while a propaganda network is at the top of cable ratings and companies like Sinclair and Clear Channel are filling local airwaves with their spin.

    IMO news is factual based reporting of events which attempts to convey what happened with as little bias as possible. Completely eliminating bias is not completely possible, but some news outlets like the BBC and CBC do a descent job. Better than many American news organizations at least. When substantive factual errors are discovered, the news organization needs to put out a correction as prominently as the original story. This can't be a perfect system, news is reported by humans and reporting is a bit of art which is hard to quantify and measure. But we need something better than what we have today.
     
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  10. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Every recent president before the current one put all their wealth into a blind trust before entering office. That helped them to keep their own wealth separate. I do think that should be mandatory for public servants, especially at some level where the job pretty much becomes a full time job.

    We do have laws already on the books for corruption, but politicians are too good at skirting those laws. There are exceptions, a number of people in New York's legislature have gone down in recent years, and there are the cases of Duncan Hunter, Ted Stevens, and Rod Blagoyavich, but for everyone caught, several more get away with creative skimming.

    I have thought possibly a better way would be to flip the money thing and make it illegal to accept any compensation for lobbying. You can approach your representative or any representative on your own behalf to make a case for something affecting you personally, but nobody can give you any kind of compensation for lobbying. Eliminate the K Street industry and require CEOs to go to Washington directly if they want to bend the ear of Congress on their behalf. It wouldn't eliminate deep pockets getting access, but there would be less competition for ears when grass roots protestors go to the legislature to have their issues aired.

    Not a cure all, but it would weaken one corrupting influence.
     
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  11. bobinfla

    bobinfla S-Vin 4086 Rdstr-Vin 0019

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    This is one of the most used spins lately. Find somebody who is "on the other side" to say something and then try to spin that to make it seam that "most" people feel that way. As soon as I see that, on either side, I immediately assume someone is trying to pull one over on me.
     
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  12. Unpilot

    Unpilot Active Member

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    I'm curios as to the support for the current potus. I have wrote about how I can see one voting for him but after 2 years and a hefty refilling of the swamp how can one still support him.

    Barry Lee Myers is a prime example of refilling the swamp. He is the CEO of Accuweather and the Trump administration proposed him as the head of NOAA. His company has lobbied long and hard to prevent the timely release of weather forecasting by the national weather service. He uses the information supplied by NOAA and then sells it.

    All recent past heads have been scientist's Most worrying is this little tidbit on the AccuWeather site:

    “Global climate change is a matter of intense concern and public importance,” it begins. “There can be little doubt that human beings influence the world’s climate. At the same time, our knowledge of the extent, progress, mechanisms and results of global climate change is still incomplete.”

    People like this are not draining the swamp they are Fox's in the hen house.
     
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  13. Intl Professor

    Intl Professor Active Member

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  14. gilscales

    gilscales Active Member

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    Truer words were never spoken, me I just want ice water in Hell, is that too much to ask?
     
  15. gilscales

    gilscales Active Member

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    EVERY president pays back his supporters with sweetheart deals at taxpayer expense and president Obama was no different, President Trump says some really stupid S**T and so many of his Tweets are more than ridiculous but given a choice of Trump, Hilary or Sanders I'd still vote for Trump and the S**T show he is because the far left will destroy capitalism with the ideals of Sanders, AOC and the like. so bring on the S**T show, I'll take it!

     
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  16. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    gilscales,
    We are soon going to see if your ability to asses risk exceeds mine. I'm still confident in my assessments.

    Do not even think of responding with dribble about how bad some other side is. I'm not promoting a side, only correcting a problem that has been brewing for decades.
     
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  17. lklundin

    lklundin Active Member

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    Already tired of winning?
     
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  18. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    :eek:

    My SO lawyer was reading what other lawyers were saying about that NY Times article @Intl Professor posted. There is a key thing about the FBI investigation that most people have been missing up to now. It started out and is still primarily a counter-intelligence investigation. That's why Mueller has indicted so many Russians.

    Lawfare does a much better job than I can explaining it:
    What if the Obstruction Was the Collusion? On the New York Times’s Latest Bombshell

    As they say, it isn't the crime, it's the coverup that gets you. Trump set off a legal landmine when he fired Comey and then ran his mouth about it.

    There is also speculation that Trump wants to keep the government shut down to keep the courts and FBI hobbled so he can't be indicted. He is that much of a narcissist that he will put millions through hell to save himself. Or he thinks it will save him. I don't think it will.

    I think the only way for the government to re-open at this point is for Congress to override Trump's veto. If the votes aren't there now to do it in the Senate, they will be soon. I saw an article the other day that at least 7 GOP senators up in 2020 are really sweating. According to a recent PPP poll most of those 7 have a generic Democrat beating them by 9 or more points right now. There are 21 Republican seats up in 2020. Mitch McConnell is doing everything he can to prevent any bills from making it to the Senate floor, but he's getting more and more pressure from his caucus.
     
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  19. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    #2239 jbcarioca, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2019
    Many of the US-centric comments here seem to ignore historical context. Distorted and falsified political news has been with the country since John Adams, at least:inception John Adams & Why Fake News is Nothing New
    Keeping within the lifetime of many of us, how about The "Red Scare" of Senator McCarthy aided assiduously by Richard Nixon and Roy Cohn (the same Roy Cohn who later holding the fledging Donald Trump to home his political sensibilities. Just in case anybody does not know, these stalwart people spread absolute lies and innuendo enough to destroy many lives and spread fear in the US populace. The Cohn rule "when justifiably accused deny, deny, deny and accuse the accuser of everything you're guilty of yourself". He was disbarred eventually but not without major damage, while helping the political career of Richard Nixon.

    The only difference between the McCarthy era and the Trump era is that most of the McCarthy era people were quite intelligent and mostly secular also.
    Today the US Presidency is dominated by Evangelical Christian seekers for The Rapture. Trump, as a King Cyrus-like non-believer is accepted as the harbinger of the end of times. A recent perfectly typical example is that of Mike Pompeo in Egypt "I come before you as an Evangelical Christian..." Check the messaging, do not accept my word for this, please. That President trump neither knows nor cares about this situation is quite guaranteed to be even more destructive, precisely because his own political party is so afraid, just as they were in the early 1950's.

    For the interest of Tesla, science, the Rule of Law and so much else the only hope is rejection of these ideologies. That will happen, hopefully before it becomes too late. Remember that Brazil, Hungary and others are being captured right now by the same menace. The advance of Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other religious extremists right now has massive risks. All this is very unlikely to end quietly.

    Note: you might consider me biased since I grew up in the McCarthy era when my father, an evangelical protestant minister, preached of the evils of 'godless communists"... Hatred of 'the others' produces truly horrible inhumanity, and it did then too.
     
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  20. Lucky_Man

    Lucky_Man Supporting Member

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    I respect your freedom to choose but, it seems you only immerse yourself in external stimulus that supports your personal ethics. Your statements, however, have affected my perception of your credibility. I sincerely wish you well.
     
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