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I'm surprised McConnell hasn't been ousted yet, actually. It shows what pathetic, wimpy, sheep-like creatures most Republican politicians are, blindly following their leader off a cliff.
Have you called and raised holy hell with your senators, daily? I call (forgive me for dealing with insipid jello) Marco Rubio and ask since he ran for president, why not begin to act like one and call for a vote and just damn vote, ignoring mcconnell and the orange traitor
 
This discussion on immigration is fascinating to me. We have just in this thread anecdotal story's of violent gang's and other evidence of empirical data of overall net gains from immigrants.

I would ask everyone to do a little look back at their past family history. Most people I know are at most 3 or 4 generations long in this country. In my case I am third generation. My Grandfather came here escaping the Russian conscription into the army in WW1.
He had less than complete documentation of his past ...long story short he was most likely an illegal immigrant.

Should we have a discussion about immigration...of course...should we try medieval methods to stop "caravans" of drug dealers and thugs I think not. As posted above if we are serious about documenting immigration and controlling then we need modern methods as well as "Some" physical systems. The idea of spending 5 billion dollars (does anyone really believe this is the actual price?) to fund a show piece for a grandstanding fool is further proof we are living in the matrix.

Plus this shutdown over this idiot idea is sure to cost more than 5 billion.
 
........Realize SOME OF THEM TELL THE TRUTH, and if you just assume they lie, you're falling for a scam.

From what I can tell, agree or disagree with her, Ocasio-Cortez is one of the honest ones. That makes people uncomfortable and the media attacks her for it.

(There are also honest politicians I don't like at all. Before my time, but from what I can tell, Barry Goldwater was honest. He lost his campaign because he was honest and people realized that his views were super scary and likely to lead to nuclear war. But he was honest about them.)
My kids, as well as I love Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (and bernie sanders)
they are populists, but also honest.
Barry "nuke them till they glow" Goldwater. (you know he's right, far right) before your time?!?!? i'm surprised, i thought you were older than i
(manhatten if goldwater had won)
the_chesley_bonestell_archives019.jpg
 
Sorry, but you completely lost me with that analogy.

Dan


Ya, that was a little out there. I was just enjoying the irony in what is going on these days.

Basically, I would prefer we were a nation of people that are capable of handling firearms and a biased press (not that there is any other kind of human besides a biased one) without freaking out. A lot of us had guns in our cars in high school to go shooting or hunting after school. No one popped a gasket and grabbed their guns during the day to kill a bunch of people. Something has changed and it is not just the lethality or the military look of the weapons.

Banning guns or the free press just seems like another knee jerk solution.
 
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Have you called and raised holy hell with your senators, daily? I call (forgive me for dealing with insipid jello) Marco Rubio and ask since he ran for president, why not begin to act like one and call for a vote and just damn vote, ignoring mcconnell and the orange traitor

Ha, Marco. He is all kinds of upset about Russian medaling in our elections. His logic, we need to do something about this or next time they could be targeting the Republicans. What a tool. You do something about it because last time they targeted your democracy.
 
Ya, that was a little out there. I was just enjoying the irony in what is going on these days.

Basically, I would prefer we were a nation of people that are capable of handling firearms and a biased press (not that there is any other kind of human besides a biased one) without freaking out. A lot of us had guns in our cars in high school to go shooting or hunting after school. No one popped a gasket and grabbed their guns during the day to kill a bunch of people. Something has changed and it is not just the lethality or the military look of the weapons.

Banning guns or the free press just seems like another knee jerk solution.
With you 100%.

Dan
 
2nd amendment is another interesting case of crazy reactions. I do not own a gun...never felt the need to. However I think the right to own one is fine. Many people feel the need for either hunting or self protection. I agree with that right. However do we think every one has the right to a bazooka...or a nuke? Of course not. So why can't we come to grips with common sense gun control? I mean banning Armour piercing ammo seems like a good idea. So does knowing who has a gun. We all know who has drivers license or if one has insurance.

But the hyperbole gets in the way of discussion. Here is one random NRA ad

That kind of scare tactic stops rational discussion.
 
If Democrats actually want immigration reform then I’m baffled at what their actual plan or policy is! I call bullshit.

(Republicans aren’t any better)

Finding any recent news stories on Democratic proposals are drowned out by stores about Trump tantrums. I did find this editorial by a Democratic congressman written a year ago:
The answer to border security is technology, not wall (Opinion) - CNN

Ignore the video with Kellyann Conway at the top, it doesn't seem to be related.

Democrats realize that immigration isn't the most pressing problem we face.

Most Democrats do feel that there are bigger fish to fry right now. Democratic voters also rank immigration as important, but less important than some other issues. I believe health care and the economy are the top two.

This discussion on immigration is fascinating to me. We have just in this thread anecdotal story's of violent gang's and other evidence of empirical data of overall net gains from immigrants.

I would ask everyone to do a little look back at their past family history. Most people I know are at most 3 or 4 generations long in this country. In my case I am third generation. My Grandfather came here escaping the Russian conscription into the army in WW1.
He had less than complete documentation of his past ...long story short he was most likely an illegal immigrant.

Should we have a discussion about immigration...of course...should we try medieval methods to stop "caravans" of drug dealers and thugs I think not. As posted above if we are serious about documenting immigration and controlling then we need modern methods as well as "Some" physical systems. The idea of spending 5 billion dollars (does anyone really believe this is the actual price?) to fund a show piece for a grandstanding fool is further proof we are living in the matrix.

Plus this shutdown over this idiot idea is sure to cost more than 5 billion.

Your grandfather was almost certainly not illegal. As long as he wasn't Chinese or an anarchist, the law was pretty much silent on whether he could be here or not until 1917. Most people don't realize how loose immigration laws were before 1917 and they didn't start taking the form we have today until 1952.

Anyone who understands anything about the engineering challenges involved in building any kind of barrier across the southern border estimate a minimum of $50 billion and Trump will be long dead before it's done. Just buying up the land necessary will probably cost more than $5 billion and will likely take us well into the 2020s. There is also at least one Indian Reservation on the border and the feds would have to negotiate and approve a treaty with them to build a wall on their property.

2nd amendment is another interesting case of crazy reactions. I do not own a gun...never felt the need to. However I think the right to own one is fine. Many people feel the need for either hunting or self protection. I agree with that right. However do we think every one has the right to a bazooka...or a nuke? Of course not. So why can't we come to grips with common sense gun control? I mean banning Armour piercing ammo seems like a good idea. So does knowing who has a gun. We all know who has drivers license or if one has insurance.

But the hyperbole gets in the way of discussion. Here is one random NRA ad

That kind of scare tactic stops rational discussion.

My SO and I have discussed requiring people to get a license to own a gun. To get the license would require taking safety courses and passing an exam. If you have a valid license, all you have to do is show it at a gun shop and you can buy what you want. The government doesn't need to track how many guns someone owns, just who is licensed to have one.

You need a license to drive or fish, why not to use a gun?

There are many countries with widespread gun ownership. Switzerland, Israel, even Canada, but none of those countries have the kind of gun violence problems the US has. In Switzerland and Israel they have an extensive National Guard like system with most younger adults in the militia and those people keep military weapons at home. Canada doesn't have any kind of national defense tie in, but most rural households have guns for protection from large animals.

The Daily Show recently had a correspondent go to a shooting day in Switzerland where people competed in target practice competitions and such. Even kids. The number of guns being toted unnerved the correspondent.

I too have never owned a gun, but I don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership. I am a bit concerned with the gun hoarders because many of those people seem to have some issues with paranoia. It isn't the owning a lot of guns that I consider a problem, it's owning a lot of guns with the opinion that is some apocalyptic or political reason to have that many mindset that concerns me.

The US has around 310 million guns in circulation, but the number of gun owners is declining. I believe it's down to around 30% now. That means the average gun owner has three, there are some with hundreds.
 
I have heard nobody in any kind of government position advocate for the open door policy pre-1917 or pre-1952. I have heard very few outside of government advocate for it. Though I have heard a number of Republicans accuse Democrats of wanting that.
I've actually wondered if maybe it is a good idea; it was the standard policy for most countries for 99% of history and worked pretty well. The rule pre-1917, as it was in the medieval era, was basically that if you could find a job and a home, you were in. And if you couldn't find a job and a home, and couldn't prove that you'd lived in that locality forever, you probably got deported as an "indigent transient". I'm not sure I really approve of this -- it's *very* money-based and class-based -- but it's a hell of a lot less racist and less stupid than our post-Chinese-Exclusion-Act system.

What crisis there are at the border are largely created by government policy, long term (the war on drugs) and short term (current administration).
Bingo.

For Republicans in mostly white, rural districts, keeping the southern border a mess helps them stay in power.
Bingo.

The Republican owners of certain big businesses also like having a pool of illegal immigrant labor to abuse.
 
If Democrats actually want immigration reform then I’m baffled at what their actual plan or policy is!
Make people who grew up here, or who have been here for a long time (say, 10 years +) into citizens. Admit people who are genuine refugees. End the drug war by legalizing drugs so that we have fewer refugees. Stop funding autocratic dictators in Central America so we have fewer refugees. Then we can start a serious discussion about H1-B and who we actually want to admit to the country.

As for the jobs issue, it's not primarily about immigrants; the jobs went to China and Indonesia and so forth; I actually think we should impose adjustment tariffs on countries which don't have the same labor and environmental standards as we do, to end the "race to the bottom" effect. Of course Republicans have opposed this idea for my entire life. Democrats supported it as recently as the 1990s.

Unfortunately, Trump's tariffs are flat-out stupid. (Tariffs against Canada?!?!) They are not rational adjustment tariffs.
 
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Totally respect your opinion.

I would argue that it would force people in office to focus on solutions rather than toeing party lines and what will keep them in office.

Dan
Term limits have been tried. In practice the elected officials become completely under the control of lobbyists who offer them jobs after they leave office, and rotate a new stooge in each time.

Term limits don't work. At all.

We should try something with a chance of working.
 
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I respect your opinion. I would actually take your argument one step further. You mention that many Republicans make decisions for the sole purpose of maintaining their power. I agree. I would also add the Democrats do exactly the same thing. Our two party system has created an environment of them vs. us and our political, economic and international decisions are being made with this overreaching philosophy at the heart of things. Two party politics by career politicians is killing the country in my opinion.

You wanna fix two-party politics?

Look up Duverger's law - Wikipedia . Then campaign for proportional representation, where if the Purple Party gets 5% of the votes, it gets 5% of the seats.

Two-party politics is a direct consequence of the single-member district, first-past-the-post election system. I've been telling people for 30 years that we need to change this system.
 
Have you called and raised holy hell with your senators, daily?
Look at what state I'm in. :rolleyes: I don't think I need to remind Schumer or Gillibrand.

I call (forgive me for dealing with insipid jello) Marco Rubio and ask since he ran for president, why not begin to act like one and call for a vote and just damn vote, ignoring mcconnell and the orange traitor
 
Make people who grew up here, or who have been here for a long time (say, 10 years +) into citizens. Admit people who are genuine refugees. End the drug war by legalizing drugs so that we have fewer refugees. Stop funding autocratic dictators in Central America so we have fewer refugees. Then we can start a serious discussion about H1-B and who we actually want to admit to the country.

As for the jobs issue, it's not primarily about immigrants; the jobs went to China and Indonesia and so forth; I actually think we should impose adjustment tariffs on countries which don't have the same labor and environmental standards as we do, to end the "race to the bottom" effect. Of course Republicans have opposed this idea for my entire life. Democrats supported it as recently as the 1990s.

Unfortunately, Trump's tariffs are flat-out stupid. (Tariffs against Canada?!?!) They are not rational adjustment tariffs.

The people ranting about immigrants taking their jobs did lose their job to a foreigner, it just wasn't a foreigner who ever set foot in the United States.

Long long ago I rarely watched the TV show Cheers, but I did happen to catch an episode where the know-it-all mailman guy got on Jeopardy when they were filming in Boston and a number of the people from the bar went to be in the audience. Going into the final round the mailman guy had a large lead, but didn't know the final question. Norm predicted that the mailman was going to blow it by going all in when he didn't have a clue and he did.

I think of that whenever I see Trump make policy except he's been going all in without a clue at every opportunity since he took the oath of office. The tariffs were such a bad idea he had to find an obscure, ostracized economist to agree with him (Peter Navaro). Shutting down the government over the wall is another stupid idea. It's probably going to have ripple effects through the economy for the rest of this year at least. The big tax scam is going to impact the economy too.

People tend to credit the incumbent when the economy is good and blame them when it's bad. Government policy definitely affects the economy, but it takes a year or two to have any effect. Trump inherited Obama's economy and it's stayed afloat despite Trump's worst efforts to destroy it, but the bill for all the damage wrought is coming.

Look at what state I'm in. :rolleyes: I don't think I need to remind Schumer or Gillibrand.

I'm in the same boat, thought my senators are quieter on the shutdown than yours. They both agree 100% with New York's.

The shutdown has already started impacting one of the biggest employers in Washington. The FAA inspects and issues a flight worthiness certificate to every new airplane before it can be put into commercial service. Every commercial Boeing delivery in the US is sitting on the ground awaiting certification.

The federal employees union has filed a lawsuit about the shutdown claiming that it is illegal to make government workers work without pay and without knowing when they will get paid. These workers are also facing real financial damages that can follow them for years and even if they get their back pay, it won't cover their interest charges on their credit cards, or get their car back if it got repoed. Nor will it repair their credit rating.

In any case my SO and I were talking about this lawsuit yesterday and what if the court says the government is violating the 13th amendment making people work without knowing when they will get paid and if the bill pending to pay them doesn't get passed and signed, they may never get paid.

If the court rules those people can't work without getting paid and the impasse continues, then all government employees in the departments that don't have a spending bill (some like the DoD are funding through some point later this year), need to shut down until these people are paid. That would include the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Corrections. No Coast Guard, no border patrol, no prison guards, no air traffic controllers...

I don't think the Department of the Treasury is funded either, so no secret service protection either.

That would put a lot of pressure on. Bills to re-open all those departments are sitting in McConnell's inbox, he could have them on Trump's desk in less than 24 hours if he wanted to. There are basically two people in the entire government holding everything up: Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump. It's estimated there are at least 70 votes in the Senate for all the bills Pelosi has passed out of the House. That would be enough to override a Trump veto, though there may not be enough Republican votes in the House yet to override a veto.

A lot of Republican insiders who thought they knew how McConnell worked are baffled at his actions on this. He's a political player to the nth degree and will do whatever he can to advance his side and himself and all he's doing here is making it worse for the rest of his senators who have to run in 2020, including himself.
 
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You wanna fix two-party politics?

Look up Duverger's law - Wikipedia . Then campaign for proportional representation, where if the Purple Party gets 5% of the votes, it gets 5% of the seats.

Two-party politics is a direct consequence of the single-member district, first-past-the-post election system. I've been telling people for 30 years that we need to change this system.
At this point I would be happy with true representation in pre electoral debates. Alternate parties will never get 5% of the vote if they are not allowed to be heard. Both the Libertarian and Green parties were shut out of all previous debates even though they were on enough State ballots to numerically have a chance to win. That's not right. If the people were able to see and hear ALL of their options on a national stage along side the Republican and Democratic candidates with the opportunity to state their platforms and respond directly to statements by their competitors it would be a much different scenario. Speaking of Presidential campaigns here.

Dan
 
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