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I agree that is can be problematic to keep "mission creep" in check...or if you prefer bureaucratic creep But this argument morphs into "they are coming to take away your gun's."
There has to be some limit on weaponry. The pace of innovation in that space is not stopping.

To be able to talk about how to have common sense control of weapons of war (that is what an assault rifle is) is important.

When the 2nd amendment was ratified, the best hand weapon available was a single shot rifle that took close to a minute to reload. A skilled person could get that down to 15 seconds. They also had poor accuracy which is why the infantry charge was a common military practice. By even the US civil war the infantry charge was becoming suicidal, but the practice continued until the end of WW I.

Back in the 18th century hand carried infantry weapons were little different from hunting weapons and often were the same weapon. The Minute Men of the Revolutionary War were farmers and homesteaders who tuned up with their hunting weapons.

Even cannon in the 18th century were less destructive than hand carried weapons available today. Hunting weapons and weapons of war have diverged and are now made differently.

Though the primary difference between a semi-automatic assault weapon and a semi-automatic deer rifle is the barrel. The hunting rifle is made for low rate of fire and for accuracy at the longest range possible. More like a sniper rifle. An assault rifle has a hardened barrel for high rate of fire (won't warp as easily if it gets hot).

An assault rifle looks more bad ass, like a Honda Civic that has a fancy paint job, lowered, with changed exhaust. It may have better performance than a stock Civic, but it isn't a supercar. Because assault rifles have hardened barrels, they are the choice if you're going to shoot up a school because you can maintain a higher rate of fire and there are large magazines available for most assault rifles, but not for deer hunting rifles.

Assault rifles are optimized for killing people. But other weapons of war are more dangerous in civilian hands. Imagine the danger if shoulder launched missile launchers were legal for civilian use? We'd be seeing the same sort of people who shoot up places shooting down airliners.

I'm realizing that the courts only have two possible rulings:
(1) It is involuntary servitude and is unconstitutional
(2) It isn't involuntary servitude because the employees can quit without penalty, get other jobs, claim unemployment benefits, collect their pensions, etc. (Essentially, the employees have been let out of their contracts because the government broke its side of the contract first.)

Note that the government is currently claiming that the employees can't look for other jobs or claim unemployment benefits *and* that they can't quit without being punished. That's unsustainable; no court will maintain that position.

If the courts pick (2), you know what will happen... everyone will quit and get jobs which actually pay money. And if they reopen the government, *nobody will take the jobs* because nobody wants to take a job with zero job security where your paycheck might stop at any time. It'll cause even *more* long-term damage.

I've read the reason the crisis of critical workers not showing up is worse among TSA because the bulk of TSA people are entry level with no seniority. They don't have much vested in the retirement system or other government benefits more senior government workers have, so for them quitting and moving on to something else is more of an option. For people with 20 years experience, the idea of quitting has much more of a barrier.

I have a friend who is a biologist with the USDA. She hates her job, but sticks with it because she can retire early in 2020 and get a decent pension that would be enough to scrape by on if she needed to fall back on it. She is one of those people who is very security conscious, so she doesn't want to jump into the private sector without a fallback income. I think she's overly cautious, but I've known others like her.

I haven't talked to her lately, but I suspect she's furloughed. Her project is a research project being done with Washington State University.

I think #1 above will be a worse situation for the government than #2, but both would cause havoc.

In the 5th Party System, working for the government was a very secure thing for those who were very nervous about job security. You didn't get rich, but the benefits were good and the retirement package left you in pretty good shape in the end. My father pressured me to get a government job because he saw how our neighbor had done. He was able to retire at 55 with a pretty healthy pension. I knew I wouldn't be able to deal with the bureaucracy. I'm too independent to be a cog in a wheel for very long.

During the 6th Party System the Republicans have been trying at every turn to make working for the government more and more aversive. They have demonized government work, tried to cut benefits, and generally made life more difficult. There are some in the current administration praising the shutdown like the writer who claimed to be a "senior White House official" who wrote an anonymous op-ed the other day:
I’m A Senior Trump Official, And I Hope A Long Shutdown Smokes Out The Resistance

I strongly think it's Stephen Miller. He's that crazy.

Conservatives wring their hands at the growth of the civil service over the last 80 years, but the world has also become much more complex and the US has moved from an isolationist power with an army smaller than Finland's to the dominant world power. As technology and complexity has grown, so has the need to regulate industries involved in these things. We need more workers to turn the gears of government because governing is much more complex than it was decades ago. Wanting to go back to the government bureaucracy of the 19th century is impossible because the world is not in the 19th century anymore.

Nobody really knows why Republicans in the Senate haven't thrown McConnell out as leader yet. Maybe because they're really stupid.

Or bigger sheep than we could imagine.

This is true. Semiautomatics are junk.

I learned enough about the technology of guns to conclude that no rational person would want a semi-automatic unless they were planning to convert it to an automatic. Revolvers are simply better for any legitimate purpose. Semi-automatics pour gunk into the innards when fired and are supposed to be *disassembled totally* every time you fire them, for cleaning. Revolvers... don't. They're simply more reliable -- less likely to blow up in your face due to poor cleaning.

If I wanted to go hunting, or shoot in self-defense, or *anything*, I might want a shotgun, a I might want a rifle, I might want a revolver. Or if I was planning a military assault, I might want a full machine gun... but I would never want a semiautomatic.

Semiautomatics are inherently defective products and should just be taken off the market. I'm actually more sympathetic to the idea that there should be licenses for civilian ownership of actual machine guns, since there are more legitimate arguments for them!

(This is one example of a situation where I think the existing political discussion is off the rails disconnected from reailty. Probably because the NRA is funded by gun manufacturers, whose sole goal is to make as much money selling guns as they can)

You can own machine guns in some states, but the requirements for ownership from the BATF and usually the state government make it difficult. Plus you can't own a new one. There is a cutoff year of manufacture.

But in warfare, a semi-auto makes sense. In WW II the standard US M-1 rifle was semi-auto and most other countries had bolt action rifles. US squads also had more support weapons, but the firepower of a US squad was significantly more than anyone elses, in part because of the weight of fire possible with semi-auto vs bolt action rifles.

After the war the US Army analyzed the effectiveness of US squad weapons and US soldiers. One thing they found was US soldiers were more likely to cut and run and were more likely to cower under fire than most European soldiers (for Europeans the war was an existential struggle for the existence of their nation, but for Americans their families and country were safe so there was less motivation to die for the cause), but when US infantry had to stand and fight, they were much more effective than anyone elses army. One action studied was a firefight between one German and one American squad in Tunisia. The Germans had better tactics and experience, but the American squad obliterated them under a hail of fire.

Semi-automatics do require more attention to keep clean, but even in semi-automatic mode they are often better weapons of combat than non-semi-suto weapons except for certain situations like if accuracy at range is an issue. The M-16 and its descendants for the US military have a full auto, short burst, and semi-auto setting. This came out of the WW II study. US troops who know they can fire automatically are more likely to shoot in a firefight. The short burst setting saves ammunition while helping with the psychological aspect.

The powder you use in a semi-automatic makes a difference too. When the M-16 was introduced the Army insisted on using powder not recommended by the manufacturer and the weapon got a rep for jamming in combat. When used with the right powder there is far less residue left in the mechanism and less cleaning is required.

For personal use, a revolver, bolt action rifle, or shotgun is probably adequate for most situations.
 
Neroden,

Please let me suggest, with true respect, that you not type of the subject of weapons. Semis are not junk, do not require cleaning on every use to function nor are they without purpose apart from conversion to fully auto.

What's the purpose? Seriously, name it. Name the function, outside a war, for which a single-shot-at-a-time semiautomatic is *better* than a revolver. Because there isn't one. If there was one, you'd have named it. I challenge you to name it.

And I've taken gun safety courses: you are supposed to clean them. Frequently. You have to disassemble them to do it. And my god, they are covered with residue on the inside. You're supposed to clean revolvers too, but it's so much simpler, since they don't have to be disassembled.

I mean, semiautomatics are very interesting machines, and I like tinkering as much as the next fan of mechanical engineering, but they don't serve a practical purpose. Historically, and I did research this, they seem to have been introduced to get around the machine gun regulations.

I didn't support banning semiautomatics until AFTER I took the gun training courses. Then it became really, really clear. None of the gun fans could explain any practical advantages of semiautomatics, although they liked them because they liked tinkering with them.

The gun fans are right when they say that most gun control supporters don't know enough about guns to write competent legislation, which means they keep writing legislation with loopholes you could take a semiautomatic through. I was interested in shooting as a hobby (though I have dropped it), and I think you have to actually understand it to regulate it. This is another reason why the political dialogue is so out of touch with reality.
 
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One of her points was that there really is no need for semi-auto "assault" weapons in the general public. I tried to explain that I could do more damage with a few large capacity medium caliber handguns and a sawed off large capacity autoloading shotgun if I wanted to mow down a lot of kids in a school and that a long gun is actually unwieldy in such an environment.

There's proof of this too. The deadliest school massacre in the U.S. happened in 1927. The weapon of choice was dynamite.

The second deadliest school massacre in the U.S. was the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007. Two handguns were used. No Automatic/Assault rifles. Just two handguns. Nothing else.
 
If we're talking self / home defense, semiautomatic hand guns are often easier to handle (lighter and no/less/easier reloading). Ideally for home defense purposes you would be using subsonic ammo and a surpressor both to reduce the hearing damage for yourself & family and to reduce the chances of shooting your neighbors - also a reason to stick to smaller caliber rounds. Better to have more lighter rounds to put into an intruder than only a few heavy rounds which may kill your neighbor through a couple of walls. By extension I feel surpressors should be more obtainable and encouraged as responsible safety equipment. They should also be encouraged when shooting at the range for the same reasons regarding hearing (even with hearing protection on, better to be quieter for everyone's sake). There's no such thing as silencers, surpressors just make guns not so damn loud.

The AR (AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle, not assault rifle btw, for the name of the company that originally developed it) pattern rifle is an interesting beast, it's so flexible, you can truly make it "your gun", and not just by slapping on tacticool lights and grips and sights and such. You can turn a single lower receiver into five or more guns by simply swapping the various upper bits (the linked video is highly educational on AR pattern guns, and includes some coverage of full auto conversions and why they're not really that desirable in reality), so if you were into guns for fun they are a great investment (buy one lower which is the controlled and expensive part, buy a bunch of uppers & etc in different calibers) versus other options.

As for "assault rifles" looking "cool" - looks don't mean anything. You can build a full auto gun that looks like a hunting rifle, or a hunting rifle that looks like an "assault rifle". Legislation based on looks is doomed to failure, or at least be ineffective.

Fully automatic weapons are pretty much useless for any real scenario other than forcing someone to keep their head down, unless you really don't care about accuracy or ammo utilization (i.e. a belt fed vehicle mounted weapon). The US Marine Corps and others have already transitioned away from safe/burst/full to safe/semi/burst for example in the case of M16A2 / M16A4, and with the exception of larger weapons such as LMGs and vehicle mounted weapons, I suspect that eventually everyone will transition to this combination for most weapons / units. The original M16 was only full auto, and the M16A3 is a M16A2 but with full auto instead of burst fire (safe/semi/full), but these are not as widespread now as the A2 and A4 variants now.
 
What's the purpose? Seriously, name it. Name the function, outside a war, for which a single-shot-at-a-time semiautomatic is *better* than a revolver. Because there isn't one. If there was one, you'd have named it. I challenge you to name it.

And I've taken gun safety courses: you are supposed to clean them. Frequently. You have to disassemble them to do it. And my god, they are covered with residue on the inside. You're supposed to clean revolvers too, but it's so much simpler, since they don't have to be disassembled.

I mean, semiautomatics are very interesting machines, and I like tinkering as much as the next fan of mechanical engineering, but they don't serve a practical purpose. Historically, and I did research this, they seem to have been introduced to get around the machine gun regulations.

I didn't support banning semiautomatics until AFTER I took the gun training courses. Then it became really, really clear. None of the gun fans could explain any practical advantages of semiautomatics, although they liked them because they liked tinkering with them.

The gun fans are right when they say that most gun control supporters don't know enough about guns to write competent legislation, which means they keep writing legislation with loopholes you could take a semiautomatic through. I was interested in shooting as a hobby (though I have dropped it), and I think you have to actually understand it to regulate it. This is another reason why the political dialogue is so out of touch with reality.

I believe you are continuing to make my point for me. There is no purpose for sugar apart from people liking it.

Your knowledge of guns kinda reminds me a bit of that part in Good Will Hunting-

I fly Eastern Block Soviet era fighters for fun. There is ABSOLUTELY no purpose to these by your definition and yet I live in a country where I can get in one, fly from one end of the country to the next and not talk to a single person either before or during the trip. To my knowledge, there is not another country on the planet with such freedoms for the average nobody.

Responsible citizens are entrusted with great responsibility and options in this country. That is one of the things that makes this place so amazing. We can change that; I wish we would not. It really is special.

Guns kill people when directed by people. People are choosing to kill more and more people on a more regular basis. Why and what can be done to alter that trajectory? The logic of removing all guns will absolutely remove all gun violence but at what cost? What is the next thing you will give up in your life because we are lowering the bar in our society? Continuing to lower the bar just continues to lower performance; it's not a one time deal. Our current political environment is a good example of this.
 
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I saw this video and was amazed at how well it aged. The problems discussed have worsened since the video was made, but I bet the majority here agree with the suggested solutions. Ross Perot was made to be a joke at the time, but it is not so funny today. First they laugh at you...
 
I fly Eastern Block Soviet era fighters for fun. There is ABSOLUTELY no purpose to these by your definition and yet I live in a country where I can get in one, fly from one end of the country to the next and not talk to a single person either before or during the trip. To my knowledge, there is not another country on the planet with such freedoms for the average nobody.
Thank God!

This Startuday, yet again, violent demonstrations are threatening to depose the president of the French Republic because many poor workers can't bear the cost of switching to renewables -- all the while rich people keep devastating the biosphere for fun a few kms for the Elysee Palace.
 
Our family also drives all electric, including the motorcycle, which are all powered by panels on the back of my house.
Global warming is real and it is an existential threat which needs our attention.

My point was about the freedoms in this country to do things you can not do in any other country. We take these freedoms for granted and we are squandering them.

And do not get me started on the French, their work week and labor laws. We all choose our governments and our priorities. I appreciate the French focus on family and personal time. It comes at a cost in productivity and competitiveness. Add to that the class system which stifles upward mobility and presents barriers to entry to those that would innovate and you have a distinctly French solution to the problem of balance in a society which appear unsustainable. Each country picks its balance. The US is obviously on the money grubbing side of the equation.
 
I fly Eastern Block Soviet era fighters for fun. There is ABSOLUTELY no purpose to these by your definition and yet I live in a country where I can get in one, fly from one end of the country to the next and not talk to a single person either before or during the trip. To my knowledge, there is not another country on the planet with such freedoms for the average nobody.

While I might agree with some of your points. The average nobody can't do this.
 
I saw this video and was amazed at how well it aged. The problems discussed have worsened since the video was made, but I bet the majority here agree with the suggested solutions. Ross Perot was made to be a joke at the time, but it is not so funny today. First they laugh at you...

He was probably right about NAFTA. It seems NAFTA was great for investors but terrible for the US lower class.
 
What's the purpose? Seriously, name it. Name the function, outside a war, for which a single-shot-at-a-time semiautomatic is *better* than a revolver. Because there isn't one. If there was one, you'd have named it. I challenge you to name it.

And I've taken gun safety courses: you are supposed to clean them. Frequently. You have to disassemble them to do it. And my god, they are covered with residue on the inside. You're supposed to clean revolvers too, but it's so much simpler, since they don't have to be disassembled.

I mean, semiautomatics are very interesting machines, and I like tinkering as much as the next fan of mechanical engineering, but they don't serve a practical purpose. Historically, and I did research this, they seem to have been introduced to get around the machine gun regulations.

I didn't support banning semiautomatics until AFTER I took the gun training courses. Then it became really, really clear. None of the gun fans could explain any practical advantages of semiautomatics, although they liked them because they liked tinkering with them.

The gun fans are right when they say that most gun control supporters don't know enough about guns to write competent legislation, which means they keep writing legislation with loopholes you could take a semiautomatic through. I was interested in shooting as a hobby (though I have dropped it), and I think you have to actually understand it to regulate it. This is another reason why the political dialogue is so out of touch with reality.

Personally, this has always been my interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

C3F56647-1FA9-4B84-812C-7EF260108C2E.gif
 
If we're talking self / home defense, semiautomatic hand guns are often easier to handle (lighter and no/less/easier reloading).
Having personally compared revolvers to semi-automatics? No. Reloading is harder (even *unloading* is harder) with semiautomatics, and handling is easier with revolvers. Reloading is *quicker* with semi-automatics, but that isn't desirable in any real-world situation.

Ideally for home defense purposes you would be using subsonic ammo and a surpressor both to reduce the hearing damage for yourself & family and to reduce the chances of shooting your neighbors - also a reason to stick to smaller caliber rounds. Better to have more lighter rounds to put into an intruder than only a few heavy rounds which may kill your neighbor through a couple of walls.
This doesn't actually comport with the evidence I've read from people who've actually been in these situations. The rule of thumb I've read is: if you've fired three bullets, you've either overcome the criminal or been defeated. This is what cops who've been in a shooting situation say; this is what people who've defended their homes against invaders say; this is what people who've studied it say.

Fully automatic weapons are pretty much useless for any real scenario other than forcing someone to keep their head down, unless you really don't care about accuracy or ammo utilization (i.e. a belt fed vehicle mounted weapon).
Those are the scenarios they're intended for, yes.

I fly Eastern Block Soviet era fighters for fun. There is ABSOLUTELY no purpose to these by your definition
That is correct. There isn't.

and yet I live in a country where I can get in one, fly from one end of the country to the next and not talk to a single person either before or during the trip. To my knowledge, there is not another country on the planet with such freedoms for the average nobody.
So you're making my point for me. :)

Responsible citizens are entrusted with great responsibility and options in this country. That is one of the things that makes this place so amazing. We can change that; I wish we would not. It really is special.
The keyword here is "responsible". In most states, we don't impose any serious tests on whether someone is responsible before letting them toy around with semiautomatics. Even in NY, which supposedly has strict gun control laws, and does make getting a gun permit a big paperwork pain, there isn't any real test of whether you're responsible (no training requirement, weak background checks), which is pretty whacked out IMO -- it irritates legitimate responsible gun hobbyists and still allows incompetents and abusive spouses to get guns.

I personally think that people who pass a sufficiently careful vetting and licensing process *should* be allowed to play with old Soviet fighter jets, or with semi-automatics.

However, since semi-automatics have no real purpose for hunting or home defense or militia use, there's no reason to make them easy to get (and no reason to let people carry them around town or countryside loaded). The Second Amendment doesn't apply to toys. We should regulate them as we regulate other hobbies which can kill third parties, like playing with explosives or toxic chemicals (both of which can also be fun) -- requiring strict safety standards and vetting the hobbyists.

Guns kill people when directed by people. People are choosing to kill more and more people on a more regular basis. Why and what can be done to alter that trajectory?

The real answer: Prevent deranged people from easy access to arsenals of weapons which make it really easy to kill lots of people. And I'll explain exactly why.

Someone who is really determined to kill people will do so (Timothy McVeigh). That's not the issue.

But most of the recent massacres have been "massacres of opportunity" -- someone who had a record of violence and was upset that day had really really easy access to weaponry whose only real purpose is to kill lots of people quickly.

What I'm saying is that these are *impulse massacres*. In the case of impulsive behavior, removing easy access to the weapons actually works. Without the easy access, these impulsive people never get organized enough to manage to commit the massacres. If they had to jump through something similar to the federal and state explosives licensing procedures, they would never make it and would probably be hospitalized or arrested before they killed anyone. (Which is probably why there aren't many impulsive bombings.)

And we can still allow access to all the weapons for any hobbyist who wants to patiently jump through enough hoops, proving that they have a clean record (no threatening their spouses or girlfriends), training in safety and handling, etc. etc.

The same is actually proven to be true of our epidemic of suicide. Someone who is truly determined to commit suicide will succeed, and cannot and should not be stopped. But most suicides are *impulsive*, and reducing access to guns prevents the impulsive suicides.

The same is even more obviously true of the rampant gun mishandling incidents, where toddlers shoot their parents and people accidentally kill their loved ones or themselves or their hunting buddies. There is far, far, far more of this in the US than in normal countries. Requiring safety training and certification would eliminate nearly all of this, and we know that because it worked in Canada and Australia.

The UK probably has the same percentage of impulsive attacks as the US; but because guns are hard to get, the attacks in the UK are committed with knives. (We can't make knives hard to get, since we need them for cooking.) Result: a lot fewer deaths and a lot fewer injuries.

Responsible gun owners should support safety and competence requirements and should support preventing people with abuse/harassment restraining orders against them from carrying guns. And maybe responsible gun owners do support these things. Unfortunately, the NRA opposes these things, because it's a front for the gun manufacturers. And the general gun control movement doesn't want to bother understanding guns enough to regulate them competently.

Gah, my point to start with was that the politics of this topic is so far off from rationality. I'm seeing a slow move towards rationality among Millennials and Post-Millennials, but in the past it's been dominated on both sides by stuff which doesn't actually connect to the real situation. People talk inaccurately as if the gun massacres were all 10-year-plans like Timothy McVeigh (they mostly seem to have been spur of the moment), ignore the mishandling incidents, act as if they need semiautomatics for self-defense (get a revolver), act as if banning weapons which "look dangerous" will do anything, etc.

I was trying to make some sort of point about how political discussions can go off the rails to the point where they have nothing to do with rational solutions to problems. I could probably use other examples. Consensus among anti-immigration people is that "the wall" would do absolutely nothing except waste billions of dollars, disrupt wildlife, and disrupt agriculture on the Rio Grande Border, and here we are talking about it.
 
The keyword here is "responsible". In most states, we don't impose any serious tests on whether someone is responsible before letting them toy around with semiautomatics. Even in NY, which supposedly has strict gun control laws, and does make getting a gun permit a big paperwork pain, there isn't any real test of whether you're responsible (no training requirement, weak background checks), which is pretty whacked out IMO -- it irritates legitimate responsible gun hobbyists and still allows incompetents and abusive spouses to get guns.

I personally think that people who pass a sufficiently careful vetting and licensing process *should* be allowed to play with old Soviet fighter jets, or with semi-automatics.
Just want to offer a comment on responsibility. Mental health pros know that sanity is becoming a transient thing. I feel fine today, but it's possible I might NOT be tomorrow. I'm able to pass a background check today, and buy all manner of weaponry. Tomorrow? Who can say? This fact is why Red Flag Laws are becoming more popular in the LE community. While these laws are a good step forward, it doesn't address the reality that responsibility - as measured on a given day - is not a guaranty.

If there's anyone out there that has a solution for this, lots of kids out there want to know about it.
 
Neroden,

Someone that thinks the way you do is exactly why I wrote the long post earlier about a conversation about gun control. I did, and continue to, trust the person I was talking with and yet we reached a point, in a very natural way, that basically ended the conversation. We went from examining the problem to taking guns away from law abiding citizens. It is the obvious solution to people that do not appreciate guns. I appreciate the simplicity of the solution but I do not believe in easy solutions that trade freedoms for safety as they simply ignore the hard work of dealing with the root problem. I'll re-iterate, we all had guns growing up and we did not shoot each other.

Back to open dialog about the gun violence problem. I will not address taking things away from people that did nothing wrong.

Metal Health
We did away with institutions where we would park the mentally ill to live out their lives without burdening outside society. It was simply inhumane and expensive so just closed the institutions without any further plan. The result is the police and correctional institutions now deal with the problem from the homeless through incarceration.

Politically incorrect term but crazy people should not be allowed to have guns. Period. If you are adjudicated crazy, the no gun restriction is semi-permanate and takes a significant amount of work for someone to regain ownership rights. If the problem is temporary, as has been suggested above, there should be a no due process method to remove the weapons combined with an expedited review to re-instate where the judicial element in the equation is an advocate for re-instatement. Hire good judges and let them do their job.

The above requires (1) a method to channel mental health information easily and freely into a national database the contents of which are protected by HIPAA type laws and (2) a national registry of gun ownership. The registry will be opposed by people like me who see the value in it but do not trust people like you to change your mind and try to use it to take weapons away from people like me because now you know where all the guns are.

Now there is a perfectly rational and reasonable approach to the metal health aspect of gun ownership. The technology is simple and available. The bug a boo is trust. Right now, I have the right to own weapons. I have a desire to address real problems with gun ownership. What we lack is competent trustworthy management to propose, advocate and implement reasonable solutions combined with trust between citizens on both sides of the gun ownership acceptance side of the argument that each respects the other's position.

If you want to turn the gun violence conversation into a gun ownership conversation, by all rights, go ahead. Just do not expect to make short term progress. Longer term the odds are in your favor as it feels to me that generationally, gun ownership rights are becoming less of a concern.
 
Having personally compared revolvers to semi-automatics? No. Reloading is harder (even *unloading* is harder) with semiautomatics, and handling is easier with revolvers. Reloading is *quicker* with semi-automatics, but that isn't desirable in any real-world situation.


This doesn't actually comport with the evidence I've read from people who've actually been in these situations. The rule of thumb I've read is: if you've fired three bullets, you've either overcome the criminal or been defeated. This is what cops who've been in a shooting situation say; this is what people who've defended their homes against invaders say; this is what people who've studied it say.


Those are the scenarios they're intended for, yes.


That is correct. There isn't.


So you're making my point for me. :)


The keyword here is "responsible". In most states, we don't impose any serious tests on whether someone is responsible before letting them toy around with semiautomatics. Even in NY, which supposedly has strict gun control laws, and does make getting a gun permit a big paperwork pain, there isn't any real test of whether you're responsible (no training requirement, weak background checks), which is pretty whacked out IMO -- it irritates legitimate responsible gun hobbyists and still allows incompetents and abusive spouses to get guns.

I personally think that people who pass a sufficiently careful vetting and licensing process *should* be allowed to play with old Soviet fighter jets, or with semi-automatics.

However, since semi-automatics have no real purpose for hunting or home defense or militia use, there's no reason to make them easy to get (and no reason to let people carry them around town or countryside loaded). The Second Amendment doesn't apply to toys. We should regulate them as we regulate other hobbies which can kill third parties, like playing with explosives or toxic chemicals (both of which can also be fun) -- requiring strict safety standards and vetting the hobbyists.



The real answer: Prevent deranged people from easy access to arsenals of weapons which make it really easy to kill lots of people. And I'll explain exactly why.

Someone who is really determined to kill people will do so (Timothy McVeigh). That's not the issue.

But most of the recent massacres have been "massacres of opportunity" -- someone who had a record of violence and was upset that day had really really easy access to weaponry whose only real purpose is to kill lots of people quickly.

What I'm saying is that these are *impulse massacres*. In the case of impulsive behavior, removing easy access to the weapons actually works. Without the easy access, these impulsive people never get organized enough to manage to commit the massacres. If they had to jump through something similar to the federal and state explosives licensing procedures, they would never make it and would probably be hospitalized or arrested before they killed anyone. (Which is probably why there aren't many impulsive bombings.)

And we can still allow access to all the weapons for any hobbyist who wants to patiently jump through enough hoops, proving that they have a clean record (no threatening their spouses or girlfriends), training in safety and handling, etc. etc.

The same is actually proven to be true of our epidemic of suicide. Someone who is truly determined to commit suicide will succeed, and cannot and should not be stopped. But most suicides are *impulsive*, and reducing access to guns prevents the impulsive suicides.

The same is even more obviously true of the rampant gun mishandling incidents, where toddlers shoot their parents and people accidentally kill their loved ones or themselves or their hunting buddies. There is far, far, far more of this in the US than in normal countries. Requiring safety training and certification would eliminate nearly all of this, and we know that because it worked in Canada and Australia.

The UK probably has the same percentage of impulsive attacks as the US; but because guns are hard to get, the attacks in the UK are committed with knives. (We can't make knives hard to get, since we need them for cooking.) Result: a lot fewer deaths and a lot fewer injuries.

Responsible gun owners should support safety and competence requirements and should support preventing people with abuse/harassment restraining orders against them from carrying guns. And maybe responsible gun owners do support these things. Unfortunately, the NRA opposes these things, because it's a front for the gun manufacturers. And the general gun control movement doesn't want to bother understanding guns enough to regulate them competently.

Gah, my point to start with was that the politics of this topic is so far off from rationality. I'm seeing a slow move towards rationality among Millennials and Post-Millennials, but in the past it's been dominated on both sides by stuff which doesn't actually connect to the real situation. People talk inaccurately as if the gun massacres were all 10-year-plans like Timothy McVeigh (they mostly seem to have been spur of the moment), ignore the mishandling incidents, act as if they need semiautomatics for self-defense (get a revolver), act as if banning weapons which "look dangerous" will do anything, etc.

I was trying to make some sort of point about how political discussions can go off the rails to the point where they have nothing to do with rational solutions to problems. I could probably use other examples. Consensus among anti-immigration people is that "the wall" would do absolutely nothing except waste billions of dollars, disrupt wildlife, and disrupt agriculture on the Rio Grande Border, and here we are talking about it.

Much like with the UAW, I've always wondered why a competing organization isn't started up?

Why don't the responsible gun owners form a new competing organization - National Gun Owner's Association? Why isn't there a "Auto Workers Collective"? Both of these organizations seem to have become dysfunctional and often times hold positions that run counter to their member's interests.
 
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Much like with the UAW, I've always wondered why a competing organization isn't started up?

Why don't the responsible gun owners form a new competing organization - National Gun Owner's Association? Why isn't there a "Auto Workers Collective"? Both of these organizations seem to have become dysfunctional and often times hold positions that run counter to their member's interests.

Sounds like the extremes in both parties though I give the edge to the Reeps.
 
What's the purpose? Seriously, name it. Name the function, outside a war, for which a single-shot-at-a-time semiautomatic is *better* than a revolver. Because there isn't one. If there was one, you'd have named it. I challenge you to name it.

For war, semi-automatics have been used since the early 20th century and the first prototypes were introduced in the late 19th. They do have a use in military situations, but so do shoulder launched rockets in the modern battlefield.

In private hands, only a criminal who fears getting into a fire fight with other criminals (a semi-military situation) would need such a weapon.

The pro-gun people have said about common sense ideas like limiting magazine sizes to 15 rounds, "what if 16 people invade your house!" About the only real world reason that many people would be invading your house at one time is if they have "FBI" emblazoned on your back and you're in a heap of trouble if you shoot any of them.

One thing that having a population that can have access to guns does is reduce break-ins when people are home. Interviews with home burglars in prison in both the US and UK have shown that US home burglars make a lot more effort to know a house is empty before breaking in because the odds the home owner has a gun is far more likely in the US. The UK has more "home invasion" robberies.

So in the US the only reason a large number of people would be conducting an armed assault on your house is by law enforcement. There is a tiny chance if you are an organized crime king pin in a war with another organized crime group, but that is a situation where what you've been doing leading up to the conflict was illegal to begin with.

I fly Eastern Block Soviet era fighters for fun. There is ABSOLUTELY no purpose to these by your definition and yet I live in a country where I can get in one, fly from one end of the country to the next and not talk to a single person either before or during the trip. To my knowledge, there is not another country on the planet with such freedoms for the average nobody.

Responsible citizens are entrusted with great responsibility and options in this country. That is one of the things that makes this place so amazing. We can change that; I wish we would not. It really is special.

I have been into warbirds since I was a small kid. I still remember going to the Planes of Fame museum in what was Ontario, CA when I was 3. The museum has been in Chino since the early 1970s. I knew what most of the planes were then.

I think it's important to preserve military history, just like enthusiasts are also preserving classic cars. Some military hardware and classic cars are on static display, but what gets the public interested is when they are actually operating. Seeing those things in action might spur more people to take an interest in history and the more people know history, the less likely it is to repeat.

I built models of many military things, read voraciously on the subject, and have had some involvement with museums. I was even involved in developing one of the most ambitious military computer games of all time (it covered the entire Pacific and Indian Ocean area in WW II with 1 day turns). I never had the money to get into the real thing and a really messed up inner ear (I get motion sick very easily) prevented me from ever getting a pilot's license, but any kind of flying hobby gets very expensive, very fast. It's a rich person's game.

Even though they still burn fossil fuels, I do support maintaining these old machines and trotting them out to demonstrate them to the public from time to time. They are too valuable to be in service every day and the fossil fuel fumes emitted by these vehicles is an infinitesimal fraction of what more modern vehicles produce. Electric vehicles still aren't a big enough thing to have more than a tiny impact on global fossil fuel sales and the increase from classic vehicles running around is infinitesimal compared to the EV impact the other way.

This doesn't actually comport with the evidence I've read from people who've actually been in these situations. The rule of thumb I've read is: if you've fired three bullets, you've either overcome the criminal or been defeated. This is what cops who've been in a shooting situation say; this is what people who've defended their homes against invaders say; this is what people who've studied it say.

Like what I said above about the crazy "what if" scenario put forward by the pro-gun lobby.

The keyword here is "responsible". In most states, we don't impose any serious tests on whether someone is responsible before letting them toy around with semiautomatics. Even in NY, which supposedly has strict gun control laws, and does make getting a gun permit a big paperwork pain, there isn't any real test of whether you're responsible (no training requirement, weak background checks), which is pretty whacked out IMO -- it irritates legitimate responsible gun hobbyists and still allows incompetents and abusive spouses to get guns.

I personally think that people who pass a sufficiently careful vetting and licensing process *should* be allowed to play with old Soviet fighter jets, or with semi-automatics.

To drive a car legally you need to pass both a written and practical driving test. To fly a plane you need even more training. But you can own a massive arsenal of guns with no training in fire arm safety or anything else. If you go into the military they drill fire arm safety into your head because they only want you killing the people they tell you to kill and not accidentally killing your own people.

Why can't we license people to own guns? It seems like a no brainer. Yes the 2nd amendment says there is a right to to bear arms, but it doesn't state what kind of arms. It could easily be limited to pocket knives. We already have a precedent of limiting what arms people can own. Private citizens can't own an array of weapons more powerful than the guns that are legal to own.

However, since semi-automatics have no real purpose for hunting or home defense or militia use, there's no reason to make them easy to get (and no reason to let people carry them around town or countryside loaded). The Second Amendment doesn't apply to toys. We should regulate them as we regulate other hobbies which can kill third parties, like playing with explosives or toxic chemicals (both of which can also be fun) -- requiring strict safety standards and vetting the hobbyists.

Many chemicals are heavily regulated. Up until a few years ago it was pretty much impossible to legally make your own ethanol fuel, and even now it's heavily regulated. The reason there is people like drinking the fuel too. If you buy a large amount of certain fertilizers you will probably get a visit from somebody from the government wanting to know what you're doing. And there are quite a few other chemicals that are tough to get unless you have permits or licenses proving you are using them for certain purposes.

The real answer: Prevent deranged people from easy access to arsenals of weapons which make it really easy to kill lots of people. And I'll explain exactly why.

Someone who is really determined to kill people will do so (Timothy McVeigh). That's not the issue.

But most of the recent massacres have been "massacres of opportunity" -- someone who had a record of violence and was upset that day had really really easy access to weaponry whose only real purpose is to kill lots of people quickly.

What I'm saying is that these are *impulse massacres*. In the case of impulsive behavior, removing easy access to the weapons actually works. Without the easy access, these impulsive people never get organized enough to manage to commit the massacres. If they had to jump through something similar to the federal and state explosives licensing procedures, they would never make it and would probably be hospitalized or arrested before they killed anyone. (Which is probably why there aren't many impulsive bombings.)

In the last decade or two new techniques for scanning the brain have been able to detect old brain injuries which usually have lower activity in certain areas. Studies done on violent criminals in prison in the US have found that a larger percentage of them than the general population have damage to the frontal lobe in the area responsible for impulse control. Interviews with the criminals and their families have found they had a parent who hit them in the head a lot, or they had some kind of bad fall and head injury at an early age.

Further studies found that the non-prison public also have people with the same brain injury pattern, it's just that they are less violent by nature and tend to just like chaotic lives. My SO's step-son from her first marriage had a mother who hit him in the head a lot when he was small and he's always had impulse control problems. He has been arrested a couple of times for minor crimes because he did stupid things on impulse.

With a percentage of the population running around with impulse control problems, limiting the destructiveness anyone can do in one go is probably a good idea for all of us.

The UK probably has the same percentage of impulsive attacks as the US; but because guns are hard to get, the attacks in the UK are committed with knives. (We can't make knives hard to get, since we need them for cooking.) Result: a lot fewer deaths and a lot fewer injuries.

I have a friend who has lived in a bad neighborhood in the UK for most of his life. He got a black belt in karate (and later taught it) for self defense. He has also lived in the US and said casual violence in the US is a lot less common. The two weapons of choice in the UK are knives and baseball bats. The UK ranks among the world leaders in sales of baseball bats, but nobody plays the game.

Responsible gun owners should support safety and competence requirements and should support preventing people with abuse/harassment restraining orders against them from carrying guns. And maybe responsible gun owners do support these things. Unfortunately, the NRA opposes these things, because it's a front for the gun manufacturers. And the general gun control movement doesn't want to bother understanding guns enough to regulate them competently.

Washington has such laws that suspend gun rights to some people upon arrest and she is both an attorney and a domestic violence perpetrator counselor. There are people out there who are a danger to anyone around them and they are not amenable to treatment. Washington also has a low barrier to arrest for domestic violence, so a lot of people end up in the system the first time they kick a door or throw a cell phone in anger (I heard of one guy who got popped for assault with a deadly weapon for throwing the family cat at his wife).

She feels that a lot of guys end up losing their firearm rights unnecessarily. However, there are other people who still have their rights who shouldn't. It's a difficult area to draw the lines properly.

Just want to offer a comment on responsibility. Mental health pros know that sanity is becoming a transient thing. I feel fine today, but it's possible I might NOT be tomorrow. I'm able to pass a background check today, and buy all manner of weaponry. Tomorrow? Who can say? This fact is why Red Flag Laws are becoming more popular in the LE community. While these laws are a good step forward, it doesn't address the reality that responsibility - as measured on a given day - is not a guaranty.

If there's anyone out there that has a solution for this, lots of kids out there want to know about it.

Sometimes people who have no history of erratic behavior can become erratic due to something happening to them, or sudden onset of mental illness, but we do have people who can be identified as having a pattern of impulse control problems. Many of these people are not violent, but the ones who have impulse control problems and a history of violence should not have easy access to guns.

At this point the US has about 1 gun per person in circulation. Banning them or severely restricting ownership would just create a massive underground market that would thrive for decades until the supply was rounded up. Australia passed extensive gun control laws after the Port Arthur massacre, but there were a lot fewer guns in circulation when they started. Both per capita and in absolute numbers.

At this point it's a model that is a non-starter in the US. With a lot of guns in circulation, some private citizens have a real need to carry a weapon for self defense. I had a co-worker once who 10 or so years before had been instrumental in putting a mid-level drug dealer away. When the drug dealer was sentenced, and they took him from the courtroom that dealer promised to hunt down my co-worker and kill him when he got out. The state let him know when the drug dealer was released and even though my co-worker had moved across the state and had a fairly common name, he took to carrying a gun all the time because he did have a real threat on his life.

I've never felt the need to carry a gun, but if someone was threatening me like that I would.
 
Why can't we license people to own guns? It seems like a no brainer. Yes the 2nd amendment says there is a right to to bear arms, but it doesn't state what kind of arms.
It also clearly states that right is in conjunction with a well regulated militia, and government regulation is further discussed in Federalist Paper 29 by Hamilton. Contrary to what many claim "regulation" is an inherent part of the 2nd Amendment.
 
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