MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AlanSubie4Life]

The main reason I'm picky is to determine my level of battery degradation. So it started with 78.5kWh (75kWh usable after we remove the buffer) and it's now 69.6.

So a 11.3% degradation in 2 years, that seems high to me.

Probably started closer to 78kWh per the BMS (hard to know exactly for a given vehicle of that vintage). EPA test got ~79.5kWh, but measured differently (Hioki (?) clamps, rather than internal car measurements). This discrepancy tends to always exist to some extent or another but does not matter since we only can see BMS measurements.
Pretty normal capacity loss especially in a warm environment. Since this is for a 2018/2019, it is probably best discussed further in the other sticky thread. Prior to this, the general discussion was covering topics which applied to the 2021 vehicle too, so made sense to discuss here.

 

[Bouba]

The superchargers just south of Orange, France. In the background you can see Mt. Ventoux, the famous deadly mountain that is part of the Tour de France….

So that (and the vineyards) are the good news…the bad news is the 250 KWh chargers were not working and the 150 KWh chargers were slow

 

[jyavenard]

Since this is for a 2018/2019, it is probably best discussed further in the other sticky thread

Sorry, I didn't realise this was a 2021 thread.

 

[Lindenwood]

Can someone help me confirm my battery?

Fremont, April 2022 build M3P.
Part # 1104422 - 02 - W .

Googling that part number (even just the 1104422) all I get are references to M3LR battery packs for sale. I have found chatter indicating it may be the new (less capable) LG 5L (bt43) pack, but very little of what I have found seems consistent. I have even tried perusing the German forums (translated).

Thanks!

 

[eivissa]

Can someone help me confirm my battery?

Fremont, April 2022 build M3P.
Part # 1104422 - 02 - W .

Googling that part number (even just the 1104422) all I get are references to M3LR battery packs for sale. I have found chatter indicating it may be the new (less capable) LG 5L (bt43) pack, but very little of what I have found seems consistent. I have even tried perusing the German forums (translated).

Thanks!

That is the Panasonic 3L 82kWh battery pack. The LG's have a completely different number. Also the LG's were never delivered to US customers!

There is some more reading material if you Google "TFF Akkuwiki", but also around here if you search for the part numbers.

 

[Lindenwood]

That is the Panasonic 3L 82kWh battery pack. The LG's have a completely different number. Also the LG's were never delivered to US customers!

There is some more reading material if you Google "TFF Akkuwiki", but also around here if you search for the part numbers.

Thank you!!

 

[TomaGo]

Hello @eivissa , how are you ?

Do you think the Model Y Performance from Berlin will be equiped with the 82 kWh Pan ? Today it is the 78,8 LG if i'm right.

Regards

 

[eivissa]

Hello @eivissa , how are you ?

Do you think the Model Y Performance from Berlin will be equiped with the 82 kWh Pan ? Today it is the 78,8 LG if i'm right.

Regards

Hey,

No I don't think that will ever happen. My best guess is that the LG 5L 79kWh will be staying until the 4680 cell Factory is ready for production by the end of the year. This is a shame, as the LG battery pack is always power limited in the performance. It has its plus sides, but Peak power isn't one of them.

I am also quite sure that we will see the first M3P cars from China with the LG battery packs. To be confirmed by the first COC documents coming in next week.

BR

 

[AAKEE]

Hey,

No I don't think that will ever happen. My best guess is that the LG 5L 79kWh will be staying until the 4680 cell Factory is ready for production by the end of the year. This is a shame, as the LG battery pack is always power limited in the performance. It has its plus sides, but Peak power isn't one of them.

I am also quite sure that we will see the first M3P cars from China with the LG battery packs. To be confirmed by the first COC documents coming in next week.

BR

So, this will not happen with a 5L pack?

 

[jyavenard]

Hey,

No I don't think that will ever happen. My best guess is that the LG 5L 79kWh will be staying until the 4680 cell Factory is ready for production by the end of the year. This is a shame, as the LG battery pack is always power limited in the performance. It has its plus sides, but Peak power isn't one of them.

What are the plus side of NMC batteries over NCA here?

 

[AAKEE]

What are the plus side of NMC batteries over NCA here?

The statements below is from research with NCA and NMC that was available a few years ago. The cells used in cars built today can behave different.

NCA have better energy density. The cars will have better range with NCA.
NCA have slightly less calendar aging in high ambiebt temperatures.
NCA delivers higher power and and also can be charged faster.

NMC show better cycling durability, so they can hold up for more miles in total. (But as we know, calendar aging is the main degradation factor for most people).
NMC has been slightly cheaper i think.

 

[anth_princ]

I am also quite sure that we will see the first M3P cars from China with the LG battery packs. To be confirmed by the first COC documents coming in next week.

Hello eivissa,

my SA just provided me copy of the CoC for my M3P (VIN LRW3E7ELxNC558xxx). CoC reports:

- Type: 003
- Variant: E5LD
- Version: PZp2s5N

So I can confirm that my M3P (EDD 28-30/6) has LG battery pack and the DU Cat. III.

 

[eivissa]

Hello eivissa,

my SA just provided me copy of the CoC for my M3P (VIN LRW3E7ELxNC558xxx). CoC reports:

- Type: 003
- Variant: E5LD
- Version: PZp2s5N

So I can confirm that my M3P (EDD 28-30/6) has LG battery pack and the DU Cat. III.

Yes. This confirms the LG 5L battery pack in the M3P 2022!

@anth_princ
Whats the last two numbers of the type certificate? 21 or 22?

 

[anth_princ]

Yes. This confirms the LG 5L battery pack in the M3P 2022!

@anth_princ
Whats the last two numbers of the type certificate? 21 or 22?

View attachment 808902

The type certificate is: e4*2007/46*1293*22

 

[eivissa]

So, this will not happen with a 5L pack?

You will see the MYP 2022 getting close to its advertised numbers as well or matching them, when you deduct the 1ft-rollout. See here:

Source

Though...the current data suggests, that this will only be the case at very high SoC and with a warm pack.
See the direct power comparison here and especially the 400kW line:

• Absolute Peak Power of the LG 5L was 416kW at 98% / 55°C.
• Absolute Peak power of the PANA 3L was 455kW at 98% / 55°C
• M3P Power Limit is 430kW ('ish)
• The LG can never saturate the M3P/MYP power limit, were the Panasonic can provide the peak 430kW down to almost 70%SoC (ideally when kept hot).

When Björn Nyland was doing his M3P 2021 Acceleration (Re-)Test in late 2021 his results were very good, but also distorted.

• The car wasn't on stock tires and there seem to have been traction problems
• Peak power was only 403kW at 90% / 47°C. The later runs were in the 380kW region. The 430kW were never reached.
• Maximum Discharge power as shown 30% too low, as this was done before an SMT update that corrected this value.
• With good traction his times should have been pretty identical at 90% down to 70% and then progressively dropping.
• I am expecting the new cars with the LG 5L pack to drop in power and times with every drop in SoC, just from the Maximum Discharge Power comparison.
• The 2022 M3P with LG 5L should be (a bit) slower thant the Panasonic versions in similar conditions.
• If I am lucky I will get one of those new LG cars in June and then I can compare my 2022 Panasonic model with the 2022 LG model as both also have the new 3D6 rear motor!

What are the plus side of NMC batteries over NCA here?

• The LG batteries are proving to be more stable in their capacity calculation. They dont drop their range so dramatically, every time you charge above 60% SoC or use DC charging.
• Also they have a much flatter voltage curve. The Panasonic battery pack starts to loose significant power below 30% and dramatically below 20% if not kept hot. This is were the LG NMC shines! I have both and there are situations were the Panasonic peaks at 60kW when the SoC is very low, were the LG still provides at least twice the power!
• Basically the Panasonic shines at high SoC, were the LG shines at low SoC. Overall the Panasonic charges faster and has more power overall.

 

[anth_princ]

• If I am lucky I will get one of those new LG cars in June and then I can compare my 2022 Panasonic model with the 2022 LG model as both also have the new 3D6 rear motor!

Probably your M3P has the DU Cat. II.
New DU Cat. III of the v.22 M3Ps with LG batteries can make differences from a performance point of view?
Rear motor inverter of the DU Cat. III seems to have some differences with the previous one...

 

[eivissa]

I currently have a M3P 2021 with the 3D1 (DU CAT1) motor and one M3P 2022 with the 3D6 (DU CAT2) motor. Correct.

• Both cars have the same P3L battery pack and both cars are limited to 430kW peak bat Power.
• The 3D6 motor has about 10kW less peak power but more torque and a wider power band in relation speed.
• As battery power is the same and the 3D6 rear motor pulls about 10kW less, you see the front motor taking up the slack and going up from 190kW to about 200kW in the DU CAT 2/3.
• 0-100 is the same in both cars, but 100-200kph is a little bit better with the 3D6 because of the wider power band and more torque.
• The performance cars seem to be only battery power limited. So as long as the battery is able to provide, then the motors will go to their absolute technical limits, which are 269kW rear and 211kW front. Therefore the drive unit designator is only important when looking at 1 Vs 2. Not 2 Vs 3. All of the drive unit limits are overshot by far.

Edit: the 3D6 has the same inverter in DU CAT 2 and 3.

More information is provided here:

[Wiki] Model 3 / Model Y - Motoren / Drive Units

<details><summary>Welcher Motor ist in meinem Tesla verbaut?</summary>Alle Dual Motor M3/MY haben als Frontmotor den 3D3! COC (Seite 2) Motorplakette Digits 1-3 → Build Site Code *** = Unique 3 character code assigned by Tesla to each part manufacturing site producing parts for...

tff-forum.de

 

[TomaGo]

Thank you @eivissa , thats clear and as for the Y Performance the 3 will now have the LG battery.

I think the power at low SoC with the LG is interesting, but i don't know if we can feel the lower power at high SoC.

I'll try a Y Performance with LG in a few minutes to compare with my 3 Performance Pana.

 

[jyavenard]

I'll try a Y Performance with LG in a few minutes to compare with my 3 Performance Pana.

I'm not sure on why you think you'd be able to compare.

Different cars, different weight, different profile.
Surely all the differences between the two that you may experience have little to do with the batteries themselves.

 

[TomaGo]

Yes you are right, the idea was to compare the 2 cars, not the 2 battries. And i prefer my Model 3 Performance.