Model 3 Performance Battery Degradation One Month (Story)

[TimothyHW3]

To sum up, they told me it is normal to see a 5% less capacity after 6 months & 10,000 kms.

First, it is def not normal to have 5% less capacity and is also not normal to "see" 5% less capacity. If it is just "seeing" (read BMS uncalibrated) then this can be fixed, probably, but if it is having, this is def not normal after 10,000km. 5% is the degradation you should have at about 150,000 km mark and this is not just "forum talk", but from data from the older Tesla fleet. I am at 15,000km mark and see "0%" degradation and "have" real degradation (which you can only check with access to the BMS) of about 1%.

I say the first part of what he told you was correct, the information he got from HQ, but the second part about 5% being normal, was just trying to brush you off. This simply wasn't the most informed employee at Tesla.

 

[Paddy3101]

First, it is def not normal to have 5% less capacity and is also not normal to "see" 5% less capacity. If it is just "seeing" (read BMS uncalibrated) then this can be fixed, probably, but if it is having, this is def not normal after 10,000km. 5% is the degradation you should have at about 150,000 km mark and this is not just "forum talk", but from data from the older Tesla fleet. I am at 15,000km mark and see "0%" degradation and "have" real degradation (which you can only check with access to the BMS) of about 1%.

I say the first part of what he told you was correct, the information he got from HQ, but the second part about 5% being normal, was just trying to brush you off. This simply wasn't the most informed employee at Tesla.

I went to a SC because I was concerned about the trend a couple months back. They brushed it off as normal, and said that no need to worry, the BMS takes care of it, just charge it and drive it (Could try doing the 100% thing, but that's not whats recommended any more). Expect a little drop in in the first few months to a year. If it gets to a loss of 30miles then bring it back again.

I'm now down to just about 280miles (251 miles on 90% charge) So bringing it back.
Lost a reported 30miles in 12000 which works out at 2.5 miles range loss per 1000 miles. (Lost 0 miles up until 5K miles) AND it's accelerating, lost 5 miles in the last 1K.

Don't have 'Weather' issues down here in SoCal, other than heat in the summer. Same commute back forward to work. Charged in a Garage, which is around 68/70 consistently daily to 90% and drops to 50% most days. Unless I do an extra trip, which may then use up another 25-30%. Don't Supercharge unless on road-trip. Don't charge to 100% unless on road-trip.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Hey bud, just FYI, no one's trying to brush you off, and you're welcome in the forum. Don't listen to our local troll.

You will do yourself a big favour if you A) learn to read (I never said I AM brushing him off, just the Tesla person was, or that he is not welcome here...) B) just ignore my posts and stop hunting them down just to press disagree and C) stop posting missinformation on the forum.
I remember a few weeks ago how I was "helpful" and "not a troll", but oh well.

@lanbo, don't listen to misinformed people who have no access to their BMS. 5% is def not normal and def. not on a Model 3 after 10,000kms. It is most likely just the BMS, but 5% degradation so soon is not normal, so what this Tesla guy told is just missinformation

As I said before, I have almost 0.02% battery degradation based on the rated km at 15,000km (which is 1% real, but that it another rabbit hole).
But if you don't believe me, just head to Bjorn Nylands channel Bjørn Nyland, who has about 3-4% degradation after 40,000km and this is a person who abuses his car A LOT!

You can also take with a grain of salt these reports (the real degradation is more, but still not more than 4%)
Tesla Model 3 With 50,000 Miles: Battery Degradation?

Tesla owner becomes first to push Model 3 to 100,000 miles, here's how it's doing - Electrek

There is a thing indeed, where the battery degradation flats out at some point, but there is definately not a single measured Model 3 we know of that has 5% degradation at 10,000km. And if there was one, real degradation, then no, this is not normal at all!

 

[TimothyHW3]

I went to a SC because I was concerned about the trend a couple months back. They brushed it off as normal, and said that no need to worry, the BMS takes care of it, just charge it and drive it (Could try doing the 100% thing, but that's not whats recommended any more). Expect a little drop in in the first few months to a year. If it gets to a loss of 30miles then bring it back again.

I'm now down to just about 280miles (251 miles on 90% charge) So bringing it back.
Lost a reported 30miles in 12000 which works out at 2.5 miles range loss per 1000 miles. (Lost 0 miles up until 5K miles) AND it's accelerating, lost 5 miles in the last 1K.

Don't have 'Weather' issues down here in SoCal, other than heat in the summer. Same commute back forward to work. Charged in a Garage, which is around 68/70 consistently daily to 90% and drops to 50% most days. Unless I do an extra trip, which may then use up another 25-30%. Don't Supercharge unless on road-trip. Don't charge to 100% unless on road-trip.

There are a few things obvious about your post, which I have been talking about for pages:

A) You never, or almost never, charged to 100% and just extrapolate the data
B) you charged daily to 90% from a high SOC

This is a pattern that keeps repeating on the forum, and to me this looks like a sickness of Model 3's BMS.

First, extrapolating is not a good idea, you have to charge to 100% at least once. It probably will indeed show just 280 miles, but you have to do it now and again so that the BMS knows where is up and where is down. I have the car for 4 months and have charged to 100% 3-4 times for road trips and drive straight away.

Same goes for the 50/60%-90%. Like I said before, this uncalibrates the BMS. Also, depending on how you schedule your charging, the car sits at 90% all night (if not scheduled to end just before you leave)

That is my advice, which I follow myself and never had any issues so far.

 

[Paddy3101]

There are a few things obvious about your post, which I have been talking about for pages:

A) You never, or almost never, charged to 100% and just extrapolate the data
B) you charged daily to 90% from a high SOC

This is a pattern that keeps repeating on the forum, and to me this looks like a sickness of Model 3's BMS.

First, extrapolating is not a good idea, you have to charge to 100% at least once. It probably will indeed show just 280 miles, but you have to do it now and again so that the BMS knows where is up and where is down. I have the car for 4 months and have charged to 100% 3-4 times for road trips and drive straight away.

Same goes for the 50/60%-90%. Like I said before, this uncalibrates the BMS. Also, depending on how you schedule your charging, the car sits at 90% all night (if not scheduled to end just before you leave)

That is my advice, which I follow myself and never had any issues so far.

I have done a few cycles of approx 10% to 100% on a couple of occasions. Didn't make a difference. Last time I did he cycle, the range went down. When I have changed to 100%, it's within 1-2miles of the 90% prediction (but usually on the low side).

It's scheduled so that it will charge the car to 90% by approx 6am, and I leave at 7am. But usually finishes about 4am for a normal commute day. If I do extra, then will finish about 6am.

The recommendation from everyone, including Tesla, is to leave it plugged-in when not in use, is it not (by not at 100%)

This may well be a BMS reporting issue, BUT FOR the trend is ever downward, and at an accelerating rate, over a significant distance/time which doesn't correlate.

 

[gaspi101]

I have the car for 4 months and have charged to 100% 3-4 times for road trips and drive straight away...That is my advice, which I follow myself and never had any issues so far.

Waitaminute...all this assumption of what everyone else does and your insistence on deep discharge/high SOC calibration being the cureall to all battery issues is based off of having owned a Model 3 for only 4 months??? Granted, deep discharge/charge cycles help calibrate the BMS, but what's being discussed here is more than what these types of cycles appear to correct...And repeatedly citing to your personal experience as authority of what to do and what not to do, and all of this pedantic lecturing...and you've just had your car for 4 months...just...wow.

 

[bedoig]

Just put that guy on ignore already. I know I did.

 

[gaspi101]

Just put that guy on ignore already. I know I did.

Oh man, I didn't even know that was an option. Done, thanks, man!

 

[TimothyHW3]

I have done a few cycles of approx 10% to 100% on a couple of occasions. Didn't make a difference.

How many cycles on how many miles/km?

When I have changed to 100%, it's within 1-2miles of the 90% prediction (but usually on the low side).

That is actually normal sometimes. Sometimes it goes up sometimes it goes down.

It's scheduled so that it will charge the car to 90% by approx 6am, and I leave at 7am. But usually finishes about 4am for a normal commute day. If I do extra, then will finish about 6am.

The question is how low do you get? You said 50, but is it really 50? Is it sometimes 60 or 70?

The recommendation from everyone, including Tesla, is to leave it plugged-in when not in use, is it not (by not at 100%)

This may well be a BMS reporting issue, BUT FOR the trend is ever downward, and at an accelerating rate, over a significant distance/time which doesn't correlate.

Well this one is debatable. There is an older video where Kim's car was resetted and then the BMS got calibrated, much like what happened with some drivers here. I think she was charging from 40%-70%.

My "pressumption" as someone put it here, is that having the BMS at a constant % range within a narrow range is not that good for the BMS. Have them reset your BMS and see how that goes after that if you charge from around 30-80/90% instead of 50-90% daily. And try scheduling the charge so that you can leave right away.

And an actual quote from Tesla from the video:

"They told us they are seeing this a lot lately from drivers who charge between 50% and 70%"

 

[TimothyHW3]

and you've just had your car for 4 months...just...wow.

Yes, you can put a blind man in the forest for 2 years and ask him where he was and he still wouldn't be able to tell you. Same thing.
And I already did 50 cycles on almost 15,000 miles (next week). If you haven't noticed - the car is been mass produced for no longer than a year and there are a handfull cars with more than 20,000 miles on the roads.
And I never said anything about authority - your assumptions and accusations. Just sharing my experience from actually reading the actual data from the car. And having the same data from about 30 other cars for about 20,000kms.
Have a nice day. Ignored.

 

[Paddy3101]

How many cycles on how many miles/km?

6-8 (low-high) cycles over 17K miles, and about 8 months. So on average once a month.

That is actually normal sometimes. Sometimes it goes up sometimes it goes down.

The trend is forever down. Don't confuse variability (which is normal) with the trend.

The question is how low do you get? You said 50, but is it really 50? Is it sometimes 60 or 70?

Daily on a regular commute day, 50-55%. Couple of times a week down to 20-30%.

Well this one is debatable. There is an older video where Kim's car was resetted and then the BMS got calibrated, much like what happened with some drivers here. I think she was charging from 40%-70%.

My "pressumption" as someone put it here, is that having the BMS at a constant % range within a narrow range is not that good for the BMS. Have them reset your BMS and see how that goes after that if you charge from around 30-80/90% instead of 50-90% daily. And try scheduling the charge so that you can leave right away.

Except that's NOT the case here. I need the 90%. If I charged to 80%, then at least once a week, I would be down to 10%

Also, I have noticed, and been noted by several on here, that nothing much happens with the BMS for about the first 5K. Then it drops significantly.

It may be a BMS issue, or a degradation issue, but that really doesn't make any difference. The actual range that I can drive is reducing. I'm not about to drive the car till it has -30 miles of range left (-10% percentage).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

nothing much happens with the BMS for about the first 5K

Time since battery manufacture is also a factor.

@TimothyHW3 should check in again in another 8 months.

Though I actually hope that this is largely some sort of software issue, not primarily real degradation, and in 8 months it'll all be sorted out.

 

[tomas]

Hey bud, just FYI, no one's trying to brush you off, and you're welcome in the forum. Don't listen to our local troll. The general consensus from both the aggregate data we have as well as pretty much all Tesla service centers is that it is within expected parameters for the battery to degrade about 5% or so within the first year or two, and then level off with virtually no additional degradation for many years thereafter. The sources are plentiful in this forum as well as this thread, but here's another: Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data - Electrek

Cheers, and keep us posted with your progress!

This is 100% correct. Copious data says you lose ~6% within first 18 months and very little thereafter. Including my 3 cars, among then a 2012.

 

[TimothyHW3]

The trend is forever down. Don't confuse variability (which is normal) with the trend.

I was actually talking about the 100% mark, not the trend. It is normal to have 310 miles at 100% one day 308 the next and 310 the other.

When I got the car it didn't quite charge to 100%. After about 10k I charged it and it showed 498km and 100% (it took 30 minutes siting at 100% so I guess it was calibrating)

Also, I have noticed, and been noted by several on here, that nothing much happens with the BMS for about the first 5K. Then it drops significantly.

Well, the only way to know is to talk to Tesla. I am sure that a BMS reset will bring back the "miles".

I am way above the 5k miles mark nearing 15k miles next week and I haven't experienced anything of the sorts, but I never charge to 90% daily. And I know a lot of other people who haven't seen any BMS issues. Bjorn Nyland for example always charges to 60% daily, but he does a lot of drives where he uses the full capacity so this might calibrate his BMS. Like I said, he is at around 3% degradation since start or about 302 miles at 40,000km.

I also don't have any stats apps installed and I don't extrapolate the data, I just read what the BMS says directly.

Time since battery manufacture is also a factor.

@TimothyHW3 should check in again in another 8 months.

Time is not that big of a factor, especially on a car with BMS, active heating and cooling even when parked.
What matters are cycles and the way you charged (plus of course temperature, but he said his temperatures are mild) But I am actively observing the battery and will definetely make a video about it.

By the way, regarding the 5k and 8 months theory. I just remembered that in the group there were 2 people who had 458km at 100% since day 1, since the car was delivered. And I am not really sure what happened there. So the theory about 5km doesn't hold there.

 

[TimothyHW3]

This is 100% correct. Copious data says you lose ~6% within first 18 months and very little thereafter. Including my 3 cars, among then a 2012.

Did you see what he was quoting before though? He quoted the other post of a person talking about 5% after 5000 miles and 6 months. Not 18 months and who knows how many miles.
This is definetely not normal, if it is real battery degradation (which it probably isn't)

 

[gaspi101]

6-8 (low-high) cycles over 17K miles, and about 8 months. So on average once a month.


The trend is forever down. Don't confuse variability (which is normal) with the trend.

View attachment 475633



Daily on a regular commute day, 50-55%. Couple of times a week down to 20-30%.



Except that's NOT the case here. I need the 90%. If I charged to 80%, then at least once a week, I would be down to 10%

Also, I have noticed, and been noted by several on here, that nothing much happens with the BMS for about the first 5K. Then it drops significantly.

It may be a BMS issue, or a degradation issue, but that really doesn't make any difference. The actual range that I can drive is reducing. I'm not about to drive the car till it has -30 miles of range left (-10% percentage).

Alright, so it appears you have the same issue as a lot of us here...if you're charging from 20-30% to 90% at least once a week, then there really should be no issue with BMS calibration. That's something realistically seen by folks that always keep the car within a 20-30% range for months on end (40-70 or 50-80, that sort of thing). From what you're saying, it doesn't look like that's you. My money is on a software bug/bad code in the BMS system, and we just have to ride this wave of "degradation" until it's fixed. Or we reach the 70% mark at which time, new battery day! lol That's the only explanation that makes sense, because this phenomenon does not seem to be apparent in Model X or Model S, as far as I am aware. My 2017 Model X that has nearly 40,000 miles is kept between 55 and 75% almost always, and hasn't dropped more than 3 miles from the original rated range. It's the only explanation that makes sense across the board, in my opinion.

 

[Paddy3101]

I was actually talking about the 100% mark, not the trend. It is normal to have 310 miles at 100% one day 308 the next and 310 the other.

When I got the car it didn't quite charge to 100%. After about 10k I charged it and it showed 498km and 100% (it took 30 minutes siting at 100% so I guess it was calibrating)



Well, the only way to know is to talk to Tesla. I am sure that a BMS reset will bring back the "miles".

I am way above the 5k miles mark nearing 15k miles next week and I haven't experienced anything of the sorts, but I never charge to 90% daily. And I know a lot of other people who haven't seen any BMS issues. Bjorn Nyland for example always charges to 60% daily, but he does a lot of drives where he uses the full capacity so this might calibrate his BMS. Like I said, he is at around 3% degradation since start or about 302 miles at 40,000km.

I also don't have any stats apps installed and I don't extrapolate the data, I just read what the BMS says directly.

The numbers in the graph ARE the 100% numbers. My 100% range is down to 282 from 310. When I charge to 100% I get slightly LESS than the 90% extrapolation says.

So I get 282 some days, and 285 some other days. BIG difference from 308-310.
The numbers I see on the stats are the same numbers I see on the dashboard (rounded to the nearest mile)

Since there is a marked/significant difference in the numbers that indicates there is some problem. That may be a BMS calibration or real degradation issue, no way I can tell.

 

[TimothyHW3]

So I get 282 some days, and 285 some other days.

That may be a BMS calibration or real degradation issue, no way I can tell.

Yes, and that is exactly what I meant with the 100% when I said it is normal - the "282 one day and 285 other day". Not the trend, got missquoted at some point. The 308-310 I mentioned was just to illustrate that the 100% "can" go up, nothing to do with your case or graph - it could very well be other numbers...

Anyways, only way is to talk to Tesla and have them reset the BMS and see how that goes. Make sure to report back on what happened.

 

[ecarfan]

Moderator note: one post has been removed. This thread has become increasingly argumentative. I am requesting that everyone take a breath, cool down, and remember that you are debating the finer points of EV battery degradation and BMS technology, which while cool, is not a life or death situation. These same debates have occurred multiple times in the S and X forums for years now. Meanwhile, Tesla keeps producing more and more cars and more and more people keep buying them.

On TMC, civility is not an option, it is a requirement. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Paddy3101]

Alright, so it appears you have the same issue as a lot of us here...if you're charging from 20-30% to 90% at least once a week, then there really should be no issue with BMS calibration. That's something realistically seen by folks that always keep the car within a 20-30% range for months on end (40-70 or 50-80, that sort of thing). From what you're saying, it doesn't look like that's you. My money is on a software bug/bad code in the BMS system, and we just have to ride this wave of "degradation" until it's fixed. Or we reach the 70% mark at which time, new battery day! lol That's the only explanation that makes sense, because this phenomenon does not seem to be apparent in Model X or Model S, as far as I am aware. My 2017 Model X that has nearly 40,000 miles is kept between 55 and 75% almost always, and hasn't dropped more than 3 miles from the original rated range. It's the only explanation that makes sense across the board, in my opinion.

My shortest commute is 75miles, regularly do 100 to avoid traffic. If we go into town after work or visit parents, that's another 100 round trip.

So take off 10% top and bottom (Charge 90% with 10% buffer for P3D), I used to have 250miles which was manageable
Now, that ~30miles have 'disappeared', that's down to 220miles, which is really cutting it very close.