Model 3 performance degradation w/ battery degradation?

[Black306]

Do the batteries run at peak now.? Because there was a update that added a little faster run, and then a 2k acceleration boost .. did those batteries run at peak prior? If not is there more boost available down the road. If not is it now at peak? Is there buffer to prevent absolute peak?
I believe they had a bigger buffer than they needed so the sold you back a parting of that buffer. I would think it’s safe to think there won’t be more coming. But who knows. I didn’t expect them to have available 2 boosts so close to each other

I believe the acceleration boost is from the motors and not the batteries; the motors are being ‘detuned’ and there is more in them.

For example...straight from the owners manual...using nominal voltage (which is average, not peak) a Performance has a max output of ~448kW (320V and 1,400A combined); that’s ~600hp. A Performance is producing somewhere around 475hp after the 5% boost today.

At the stated kW rating (339kW combined) and rated max amps (1,400A combined), that means only ~240V is being applied to the motors.

Any way you slice it, there is some underrating somewhere related to the motors. Yes, I know I’m over simplifying, but I still wouldn’t be surprised if there were more acceleration enhancements in the future.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Do the batteries run at peak now.? Because there was a update that added a little faster run, and then a 2k acceleration boost .. did those batteries run at peak prior? If not is there more boost available down the road. If not is it now at peak? Is there buffer to prevent absolute peak?
I believe they had a bigger buffer than they needed so the sold you back a parting of that buffer. I would think it’s safe to think there won’t be more coming. But who knows. I didn’t expect them to have available 2 boosts so close to each other

Most likely, Tesla ships stuff a little conservative and then waits to collect data on the fleet. I bet they use this data to confirm their suspicions and make adjustments accordingly. They can always add a little bit of power and look like heroes, even though it was likely planned to some extent.

The 2K boost is only on the LR AWD model, which best we can tell has the same battery as the performance and LR RWD variants. So of course on the AWD model the battery isn't run at its limit. However, interpreting the changes over time with the performance model, its very likely the Performance model is run about as hard as they're comfortable. This does not mean it can't physically put out more power, just that they are likely very near the limit of what they're comfortable shipping for that particular hardware. And the real boost to the AWD models when you pay the 2K is just running the inverters harder at low speeds, which appears to be intentionally limited. This is likely done to both increase the gap between the performance variant and the AWD to make the P3D look better, as well as reduce the likelihood of drive unit failures on the AWD.

 

[Tessaract]

For the center diff, yes, but the Model 3 does have a differential for its motor(s)... otherwise it's putting its power down through magic.

Of course, but I was only discussing the relevant differences between single and multi engine AWD.

 

[vbsdan]

I have a 2010 Roadster with 50,000+ miles that has lost approximately 1/4 of its rated range. The battery's CAC shows a similar 25% drop from when new. My zero to sixty time is noticeably slower, now around 5 seconds, compared to 3.9 when new. This may or may not translate to M3, just throwing it out there.

 

[jjrandorin]

I have a 2010 Roadster with 50,000+ miles that has lost approximately 1/4 of its rated range. The battery's CAC shows a similar 25% drop from when new. My zero to sixty time is noticeably slower, now around 5 seconds, compared to 3.9 when new. This may or may not translate to M3, just throwing it out there.

I doubt it translates at all, since its a different battery technology, etc.

 

[Young Phenom]

I doubt it translates at all, since its a different battery technology, etc.

My wife's iPhone from 10 years ago also has considerably worse battery life than a new iphone.

 

[jackmott]

I doubt it translates at all, since its a different battery technology, etc.

There is no meaningful difference. As the battery degrades so will peak voltage, as peak voltage degrades peak power will degrade unless power delivery was capped sufficiently to begin with that the new, lower voltage is still as high as the cap. Even a model 3 LR whose peak power is capped at low speed is still making use of the max voltage at higher speeds. So you could lose some performance with degradation.

Good to see that Matt Simmons with a 2019 car is still getting FTD at autocrosses though!

 

[gearchruncher]

As the battery degrades so will peak voltage

Not the way chemistry works. The chemical reaction always has the same peak voltage. We do not charge degraded batteries to a different voltage. This is why a tiny 100mA lithium battery has the same peak voltage as a 500Ah cell.

As a battery degrades, the capacity reduces, and the impedance increases. Thus, the voltage UNDER LOAD may be lower, and it will drop in voltage faster as used (less capacity), but the "peak voltage" is identical. Yes, particularly the impedance degradation can limit single acceleration performance, but if we're going to discuss it, let's be accurate with our words.

The thing is, Electrics are not generally voltage bound at lower speeds. Torque comes from current, and generally they are already capping current at low speeds so they don't just roast the tires, and if you don't need current, you don't need voltage. So degradation should be more evident at the ~50 MPH when a M3P starts to approach being voltage limited, not right off the line.

Good to see that Matt Simmons with a 2019 car is still getting FTD at autocrosses though!

I'm pulling it off in a 2018. I guess I should argue I'm that much better of a driver because my car is older

 

[jackmott]

Ok, that is interesting to know that 100% state of charge voltage is the same even when 100% state of charge is less. I apologize for being wrong!

 

[gearchruncher]

Ok, that is interesting to know that 100% state of charge voltage is the same even when 100% state of charge is less.

And to help a bit further with the language used in industry. The 100% State of Charge (SoC) voltage is the same even when the State of Health (SoH) of the cell is not 100%.

 

[SK360]

Good to see that Matt Simmons with a 2019 car is still getting FTD at autocrosses though!

Thought I felt my ears burning….

I'm pulling it off in a 2018. I guess I should argue I'm that much better of a driver because my car is older

Only one way to find out. Death race!

 

[gearchruncher]

Only one way to find out. Death race!

Looks like Murdo, SD (population 483) is right in the middle of the two of us and has a Supercharger. See you there Saturday, I'm sure we can find a local AutoX to battle once we're there right?

Rules: Must drive our 200TW tires there. PAX is based on model year of the car, 2022 PAX = 1.00, 2021 = 0.9, 2020 = 0.8, 2019 = 0.7, 2018 PAX = 0.6

See you soon!

 

[gskomes]

I've been wondering about this. I have a late 2019 performance model 3 with 19,000 miles. I typically only charge to 75-80% at full charge it says I get only 265 miles. I know I like to have fun when I drive but I'm not always gunning it and I do mostly highway miles. I feel like the 265 at 100% is a pretty big drop off.