Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

[anhnguyen]

...just noticed this..

 

[Ben W]

I don't think the conditions you mentioned could be described as a "simple set of rules" ?

Can you propose simpler? If the goal is to make supercharging free when used responsibly (for long-distance travel), but not when used irresponsibly (local charging and/or stall-hogging), then I think this scheme is about as simple as it's possible to make it. To recap: pay-per-minute fee (e.g. $0.25/min), but the charging fee is waived if (1) 100+ miles are driven within 24h of charging, and (2) you haven't blocked others (by sitting in a stall not charging at a fully-occupied SC). If only the tax code were this simple...

 

[Chuq]

Can you propose simpler?

Supercharging enabled = Unlimited supercharging
Supercharging disabled = No supercharging

Supercharging enabled by default with all Tesla vehicles bar the base level Model 3, on which it can be enabled for US$2k.

The revenue from the volume of vehicles being bought will cover the cost for additional sites or stalls.

If Tesla want to discourage local supercharging, just stop building SCs in the middle of cities. Build them on the outskirts, where long distance drivers need them most. Build "citychargers", which are functionally the same as superchargers except not advertised as such, in the cities, and charge for them the same as most other EV charge networks do.

 

[Tam]

...stop building SCs in the middle of cities...

May be that is in the thought that some have proposed that Interstate Freeways should bypass downtown to discourage "locals" from using it.

 

[ohmman]

If Tesla want to discourage local supercharging, just stop building SCs in the middle of cities. Build them on the outskirts, where long distance drivers need them most. Build "citychargers", which are functionally the same as superchargers except not advertised as such, in the cities, and charge for them the same as most other EV charge networks do.

I also think they'd benefit from adding banks of HPWCs to Supercharger locations that have "local" contingents. Add signage noting that they're intended for locals or people who plan to spend a few hours nearby. Adding 8 HPWCs to a 8 Supercharger location would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

 

[Saghost]

I also think they'd benefit from adding banks of HPWCs to Supercharger locations that have "local" contingents. Add signage noting that they're intended for locals or people who plan to spend a few hours nearby. Adding 8 HPWCs to a 8 Supercharger location would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

The question is: Would anyone ever use the HPWCs unless the SpC stalls are full?

I'm having trouble coming up with a reason someone would choose that, whether or not they were a local, unless Tesla did something to force them. AFAIK, the locals under discussion aren't leaving the car to go do something for several hours, right? So they'd be losing a bunch of their time using the HPWCs - even the ones who aren't Livery/Uber drivers that are sitting with the cars.

 

[ohmman]

AFAIK, the locals under discussion aren't leaving the car to go do something for several hours, right?

I suppose that's a good point. I assumed they were plugging in, and leaving the car to go about their daily shopping. Many people have said that the Superchargers being used by locals are in grocery store parking lots, or normal shopping plazas. This is unlike the Newark one that's closest to you, which isn't in a place people would be unless they were stopping for a charge. My closest Supercharger is in Petaluma, and it's in a shopping center with a grocery store, sporting goods store, restaurants, etc. I imagined that locals might be plugging in just to plug in. In that case, I would hope they'd choose the HPWC. However, your point is well taken. We're talking about people who aren't considering others in their decision already, so that's unlikely to change.

OK, fine. I take it back.

 

[Snow Drift]

What if you want to drive up to Napa for the weekend? 60+ miles there, 60+miles there, if you do any "fun" driving, you'll need to charge to be able to get home. That's an untenable solution that removes the value that Supercharging presents.

I get it. How about this, any supercharger within ten miles of your home base is pay per use. All others are free.

 

[Red Sage]

Of course, as I point out later, I am not really supporting a pure pay per use model in the first place, but rather a hybrid. The pay per use part is only as a way to address urban station congestion.

Once again, assuming facts not in evidence, attempting to fix a problem that does not exist. And no matter how many times you rephrase this, it still smacks of being rather elitist in that it is an attempt to separate Model ☰ Owners from those who bought Model S and Model X with 'FREE for LIFE!' access to Superchargers. Or, more harshly, to separate the so-called 'unwashed masses' from those who have 'earned the right' by paying more for their cars. C'mon, MAN!

There is absolutely no need to adopt a 'pay per use' model for Supercharger access -- AT ALL. None. Doing so simply confuses the issue unnecessarily. Who can use a Supercharger? Where? When? The answers should simply be Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime. Period.

 

[hiroshiy]

I also think they'd benefit from adding banks of HPWCs to Supercharger locations that have "local" contingents. Add signage noting that they're intended for locals or people who plan to spend a few hours nearby. Adding 8 HPWCs to a 8 Supercharger location would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

It seems you already took this back, but I agree with you, if this "HPWC with Supercharger" is applied to city superchargers, where it is intended to help apartment dwellers charge. We have three Superchargers in Tokyo, like 10-20 minutes driving distance (what a waste!), but many of users are I guess local. Sometimes I find the superchargers full, because inconsiderate people left their cars for hours, going to movies and dinner etc. If I had about 50% charge and wanted to get full or 90% charge while watching a movie, I would happily choose HPWC if available.

 

[CuriousG]

That is only true if people actually use $2000 worth of supercharging. The abuse of superchargers is way overplayed. A lot of us plan on having home charging ready to go when their model 3 is delivered. They are currently working on doubling the amount of superchargers before the Model 3 is released, at some point the building of new superchargers will slow down and the main cost associated with them will be electricity and maintenance.

You're obviously not in CA so you have no idea with regard to the status of Supercharger abuse. Until you're waiting for a spot, you're only going to deny it's existence. With a lot more Tesla's in CA and the upcoming Model 3, it will only get worse only you won't see the impact immediately since it will be a slower rollout.

 

[Red Sage]

The question is: Would anyone ever use the HPWCs unless the SpC stalls are full?

I'm having trouble coming up with a reason someone would choose that, whether or not they were a local, unless Tesla did something to force them. AFAIK, the locals under discussion aren't leaving the car to go do something for several hours, right? So they'd be losing a bunch of their time using the HPWCs - even the ones who aren't Livery/Uber drivers that are sitting with the cars.

As I understand the issue, the problem with so-called 'locals' was indeed that they were using Supercharger stalls as personal parking spaces. Sometimes without plugging in at all... Sometimes by plugging in, when they didn't actually need a charge at all, and 'hogging' a space for much longer than anyone could possibly need it. Sometimes overnight, sometimes all day long, just because they 'had a right'. This was the actual reason for the 'Don't be a DICK.' e-mails from Tesla Motors.

The presumption is that all Tesla Owners will be considerate of others. That they will immediately move their cars as soon as they have enough charge to continue their trip to their Destination, or the next Supercharger. That way the convenience level to all can be maximized.

I would hope that in locations that also have HPWCs, those who know they will be at a location for several hours, should also know they do not need to use the Superchargers to 'top off'. So when you go to a place specifically to do some shopping, and have lunch, and see a movie... Plug in to the HPWCs. But, when you stop to grab a quick bite, or a coffee, and use a lavatory, then hit the road again... Use the Superchargers. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Snow Drift]

The reality is, Superchargers are not free to S and X owners. Tesla has built in an amount of money into the price to consider the use for the battery pack's lifetime.

Tesla must determine a way to curb abuse or else the user experience for all owners will deteriorate and the goodwill enjoyed will suffer.

Similar to a "free" maintenance plan by luxury car companies or prepaid rate for normal car companies, Tesla should find a happy medium to provide expensive models with inclusive use and allow base model owners to pay for the privilege.

If an S or X owner pays $150k and has to wait an hour for a local base 3 abuser to charge, that will just add to animosity and hurt the company.

We all benefit from shorter lines at the supercharger. That might mean making it a privilege, not a right.

 

[rallybob]

After reading many of these posts, let's consider the main issue for Tesla.
The cost to install monitoring equipment on all these SC chargers.
It would be cheaper to do as some have mentioned and have a flat fee for SC use. If you want it or need it, you pay up front.
No need to install new equipment or have a billing infrastructure. This is the argument for offices to not charge for staff use. The cost would most likely be more than the revenue of per use fees.

An office could charge a monthly fee to staff to use chargers at work. Simple and others will not see it as a free perk to EV owners.

 

[ikjadoon]

I think supercharging will always be included with full access at all times with no additional fees:

1. New Supercharging stations are being built at 7-8 per week, worldwide. That's just the rate they've set through 2017, when hardly any Model 3s will be delivered. I would fully expect they increase that rate as even more Model 3s are delivered by 2018. Maybe even 9-10 Superchargers per week.

2. Tesla seems very interested in gigacharging (I just made that word up): 150Kw to 300Kw. That's ~20 minutes to fill up. With new Supercharger stations in heavy routes accommodating 14-16 cars, that's about 50 cars per hour.

3. The only fee might just be be "charger squatting" after your car is fully charged. If it's still plugged in after 100%, then you get charged $15 for the first five minutes. Then, $30 for the next 5 minutes. It would be like you sitting at a gas station after you've already pumped your car: of course that should be punished.

 

[ohmman]

If an S or X owner pays $150k and has to wait an hour for a local base 3 abuser to charge, that will just add to animosity and hurt the company.

And vice-versa, if S and X owners are abusing their "free for life" charging, and a Model 3 owner wants to charge, that'll create plenty of animosity as well. We're all sharing this resource together.

 

[Red Sage]

Remember on the cheapest Model S, it used to cost $2000(IIRC) to get "free" access to Superchargers.

The original intent was that for the Model S 60, you would pay the fee to get the optional DC Charging Hardware that allows Supercharging installed. The original presumption was that any vehicle with the hardware would be Supercharger enabled by default. The least expensive Model S 40 never had the option of DC Charging Hardware at all.

Two things happened: 1) It was determined that it was easier to build the Model S if the DC Charging Hardware was included by default; and 2) It was decided that due to the few amount of orders for Model S 40, those cars would actually be software limited Model S 60 vehicles.

As a result, Supercharging was still not offered in Model S 40 vehicles, even though the hardware was included in the car. A person who owned a Model S 40 and wanted to use a Supercharger would have to first: 1) Pay a $10,000 fee to upgrade their Model S 40 to the full 60 kWh capacity; and 2) Pay an additional $2,500 fee to add Supercharger access.

Model S 60 buyers could pay a $2,000 fee at the time of order to get Supercharger access. Or, they could purchase the car without Supercharging... and ADD it later for a $2,500 fee.

Model S 85 buyers all had Supercharger access included by default.

All Supercharger enabled Generation II vehicles had Supercharger access that is 'FREE for LIFE!' That was later qualified as FREE (of additional fees) for LIFE (the life of the car). Some decide to, for some strange reason, point out that at no time has Tesla Motors used the word 'unlimited' in regard to Supercharger access terms. I don't believe that matters.

By the way... Superchargers had been announced as a technology that would allow fast charging, but Tesla Enthusiasts didn't know how they would be paid for... It was originally presumed that there would be either a pay-per-use plan, or some type of monthly or annual subscription plan. So, everyone was very pleasantly surprised when Elon Musk announced it was actually designed and planned to be 'FREE for LIFE!' at the Supercharger event at Hawthorne.

Since the Model S 60 was Discontinued in favor of the Model S 70D, which was later joined by the Model S 70, every Tesla Motors product has been released with Supercharger access standard on the 'FREE for LIFE!' plan.

Interesting isn't it, that today people are wondering if there will be a pay-per-use plan, or some type of monthly or annual subscription plan for Supercharger use for Model ☰...?

 

[ikjadoon]

Which gas stations punish people for that?

If anybody did that for any length of time at a busy gas station, somebody with a baseball bat would connect that bat with the windshield.

But, honestly, haha: it's not a problem for gas stations, so why would they waste time making up a punishment scheme?

 

[Red Sage]

Unfortunately, the problem of local users using SuperChargers is real, and Tesla is wise to allow themselves the room to disallow local charging.

...

For now, we get this (probably false) impression that Tesla is walking in the dark on this one into a situation where there will be common knife fights at SuperChargers in ten years due to all the competing locals who want free juice.

I disagree with your entire post, but I'll focus on these points. The only real problem has been that at busy Supercharger locations (San Jan Capistrano, in particular) there have been those determined to be 'locals' who were using Supercharger slots as personal parking spaces.

• Sometimes they would just park there.
• Sometimes they would park and plug-in, but wouldn't come back for hours.
• Sometimes they would park, plug-in even when they didn't need to charge, and still not come back for hours.

That is the extremely inconsiderate behavior that Tesla Motors spoke out about. It was never about 'the juice'. It was always about the congestion that was further exacerbated by the actions of those who were [ICEHOLES]. For now, Tesla Motors has solved such issues by installing new Supercharger locations, expanding existing Supercharger locations, and hiring Valets at crowded Supercharger locations, who make sure that cars are MOVED after they have completed charging.

Tesla Motors wants Supercharging to be as convenient as possible. The actions of [ICEHOLES] make it less so. They have addressed this situation in the appropriate fashion, in my opinion.

 

[ohmman]

The only fee might just be be "charger squatting" after your car is fully charged. If it's still plugged in after 100%, then you get charged $15 for the first five minutes. Then, $30 for the next 5 minutes. It would be like you sitting at a gas station after you've already pumped your car: of course that should be punished.

The problem with this is that going from 90-100% is a disproportionately long amount of time, and in most cases is equivalent to Supercharger hogging. In some cases, you need that 100% charge, but most of the time you don't. I don't have a great workaround, just wanted to make sure that was clear.