Model S Accident/Fire

[mknox]

There is not the comprehensive inspection program in the US to clean up and prevent road debris like in most of Europe. Road debris causes 25,000 accidents and 800 deaths a year. Not only is there fallen debris from unsecured loads but also US trucks are allowed to use retread tires that release large pieces of tread when they fail. Road debris can cause fires in gas powered cars - either by damaging the fuel system or puncturing the oil pan.

Ditto Canada. I drive mostly freeway miles on a route heavy with transport trucks and am constantly dodging debris, especially large hunks of retread rubber that these trucks keep throwing off! They've tightened up regulations recently, but a few years ago, these large trucks where actually throwing whole wheels off, killing other drivers, when the lug nuts failed. I actually saw a transport truck lose a wheel that bounced into the oncoming lane (fortunately missing traffic before heading into a field).

 

[Doug_G]

Ditto Canada. I drive mostly freeway miles on a route heavy with transport trucks and am constantly dodging debris, especially large hunks of retread rubber that these trucks keep throwing off! They've tightened up regulations recently, but a few years ago, these large trucks where actually throwing whole wheels off, killing other drivers, when the lug nuts failed. I actually saw a transport truck lose a wheel that bounced into the oncoming lane (fortunately missing traffic before heading into a field).

Back in the 90's a friend of mine had to dodge flying truck wheels twice in the same year. The first time it was a really close call and he had his family in the car. Glad to hear they're cracking down on that.

Interestingly, I haven't had any friends sending me videos of burning Teslas. One coworker asked me if I saw it.

 

[surfingslovak]

Lithium Polymer and Lithium Ion are not the same thing.

For demonstration purposes this will do, I believe. The video was directed at someone upthread, who insinuated that a battery fire cannot create an intense enough flame, and the affected vehicle must have had a flammable liquid onboard. If you find some video material, which involves the exact same cell chemistry used in the Model S, please be sure to post it.

 

[bluetinc]

So Tesla is "in the average" of 1 out of 1000.
Yet this is a brand new model top performing car. You would expect better figures don't you?

Consumer reports seems to have some age specific fire data. They state:

"The Highway Loss Data Institute tracks myriad vehicle woes, but not accident-related fires. Its latest data show the average for the 2010 to 2012 model years for noncrash related fires is 0.1 per 1,000 insured vehicle years, or 5,600 total claims. (An insured vehicle year is one vehicle insured for one year.) A rough extrapolation puts Tesla’s rate at below that average, assuming on average its 13,000 cars have been around for one year. "

Tesla Model S Fire | Car Safety - Consumer Reports News

Peter

 

[SCW-Greg]

Remember Apple's "antenna gate?"

Took them something like 20 days to respond to the media... while they quietly and methodically researched the issue. Then when they were sure of their findings, they came out very publicly and definitively answered what the real issue was. Also explained how all other makes and models are suspectable to the exact same thing. It quashed the rumor mills after that.

Looking for similar and thurough TM leadership here as well.

 

[omarsultan]

Although the Tesla Model S is not made to drive over large metallic objects, maybe there should be some kind of additional protection (made of carbon fiber?) under the battery pack?.

There is a ballistic panel that covers the bottom of the car between the axles - there are pics of it up-thread. The current speculation is that the debris breached the front of the pack (i.e. under the frank) rather then from under the car. Also up-thread is the report from the FD who tried to cool the pack from underneath and could not access it that way, so it would appear the undercarriage remained protected.

O

- - - Updated - - -

It would be cool if the car could drop the battery and roll forward 30 feet on the 12 volt battery. This could assist firefighters, protect vehicle occupants, and minimize damage to the main cabin area.

...and set the car behind you on fire instead

 

[Norbert]

Consumer reports seems to have some age specific fire data. They state:

"The Highway Loss Data Institute tracks myriad vehicle woes, but not accident-related fires. Its latest data show the average for the 2010 to 2012 model years for noncrash related fires is 0.1 per 1,000 insured vehicle years, or 5,600 total claims. (An insured vehicle year is one vehicle insured for one year.) A rough extrapolation puts Tesla’s rate at below that average, assuming on average its 13,000 cars have been around for one year. "

Tesla Model S Fire | Car Safety - Consumer Reports News

Peter

I don't understand that number. The same article also mentions:

Figures from the National Fire Protection Association show that fire departments responded to an average of 152,300 automobile fires per year from 2006 to 2010, at a rate of 17 car fires being reported per hour.

Numbers elsewhere are around 180,000 per year. Since the total number of cars in the US is around 255 million, using 152,300 per year as stated above, would be more than 1 in 1700. Including Roadsters, Tesla surely has more than 8500 car years, meaning they are, in comparison, better than 5x the ICE average.

(And 152,300 is just the number the fire department responded to, which probably explains why the numbers given elsewhere are higher, often 180,000 per year).

 

[texex91]

Remember Apple's "antenna gate?"

Took them something like 20 days to respond to the media... while they quietly and methodically researched the issue. Then when they were sure of their findings, they came out very publicly and definitively answered what the real issue was. Also explained how all other makes and models are suspectable to the exact same thing. It quashed the rumor mills after that.

Looking for similar and thurough TM leadership here as well.

I really hope they do.

iPhone cost a few hundred dollars, my Tesla cost $113,000.

 

[omarsultan]

Plus if it had air suspension the car could have quickly gone to max height, and jumped over the obstacle :biggrin:

Like Speed Racer in the Mach 5

 

[Benz]

Has anyone got an idea what distance the driver of the Model S still managed to drive (or roll forward) after the impact until it stood still?

 

[bluetinc]

The first number reads as it only includes cars from model years 2010-2012 AND only includes fires not related to accidents. Those cars has a rate of fire of 1 in 10,000 per year.

The second number is all car fires. All cars on the road have a rate of fire of about 6 in 10,000 per year (152,300) to 7 in 10,000 per year (180,000).

Peter

PS Does this fire count as an accident?

I don't understand that number. The same article also mentions:



Numbers elsewhere are around 180,000 per year. Since the total number of cars in the US is around 255 million, using 152,300 per year as stated above, would be more than 1 in 1700. Including Roadsters, Tesla surely has more than 8500 car years, meaning they are, in comparison, better than 5x the ICE average.

(And 152,300 is just the number the fire department responded to, which probably explains why the numbers given elsewhere are higher, often 180,000 per year).

 

[rlang59]

There is not the comprehensive inspection program in the US to clean up and prevent road debris like in most of Europe. Road debris causes 25,000 accidents and 800 deaths a year. Not only is there fallen debris from unsecured loads but also US trucks are allowed to use retread tires that release large pieces of tread when they fail. Road debris can cause fires in gas powered cars - either by damaging the fuel system or puncturing the oil pan.

Every single day driving home from work on 295 in NJ I see a new piece of a tire that has blown off a truck. Trucks need to have much better standards and better inspection than they do now.

 

[scaesare]

Has anyone got an idea what distance the driver of the Model S still managed to drive (or roll forward) after the impact until it stood still?

One of the reports said he hit it on the HOV lane of the freeway, and was after that able to drive off of the freeway, and on to the surface street where he exited the vehicle... I'd imagine that could take upwards of a few minutes, depending on his proximity to an exit ramp..

 

[NigelM]

Has anyone got an idea what distance the driver of the Model S still managed to drive (or roll forward) after the impact until it stood still?

Driver confirmed he was in the HOV lane on the 167, so he managed to cross to the inside lane and exit the freeway and the car is shown at the end of the off ramp...To answer the question: that would be a minimum of 1/4 mile according to Google Maps.

 

[zeron]

Remember Apple's "antenna gate?"

Took them something like 20 days to respond to the media... while they quietly and methodically researched the issue. Then when they were sure of their findings, they came out very publicly and definitively answered what the real issue was. Also explained how all other makes and models are suspectable to the exact same thing. It quashed the rumor mills after that.

Looking for similar and thurough TM leadership here as well.

It took them 20 days to come out with the revelation "You are holding it wrong.". It's a running gag for terrible, terrible PR.

 

[Krugerrand]

It saddens me that to see that the Tesla Model S fire video may now be the most watched video about Tesla on YouTube.

This is simply more free advertising for Tesla. There will always be that segment of the population who acts/speaks/embraces their inner Drama Queen before thinking. Fortunately, a good number of them have either short memories or eventually reengage their brains. Those that don't, we simply do not worry about. Another segment of the population will see the video for what it is; a car fire - been there, done that, it's part of the risk of living. The final segment of the population, the astute and informed, will see the video as further proof of the awesome job that team Tesla has done at building a great car and will marvel at the accomplishment (their first ground up vehicle). It will also inspire their imaginations; what other things are possible with future Tesla models.

 

[Norbert]

The first number reads as it only includes cars from model years 2010-2012 AND only includes fires not related to accidents. Those cars has a rate of fire of 1 in 10,000 per year.

The second number is all car fires. All cars on the road have a rate of fire of about 6 in 10,000 per year (152,300) to 7 in 10,000 per year (180,000).

Peter

PS Does this fire count as an accident?

Right, but why use a number relating to some specific subset? And even if one accepts that, you could then point out that there were *none* in the other subset, in the other subset it would then achieve infinite perfection. Why split it, and say it is this number in one group, and that number in the other group?

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is all just incorrect. I first started talking about a problem with the battery in post #23 in this thread, just 5 minutes after I posted the video. If you look at the post, I was responding to my own post, specifically because I was analyzing the video in real time -

I understand that isn't mentioning a cascade failure. But I was clearly referencing the battery.

Post #47 I posted this (including quotes from the original post for context) -

Any notion that I didn't immediately raise a cascading failure in the pack as a possible cause is wrong. It was the first issue I raised, and I had already discussed the fire patterns, the lack of major impact damage or involvement of other cars and any of a number of other issues very early on in this conversation.

By the time of the Tesla release I was favoring the 12v theory, a) because it was more comforting and I saw no reason to be alarmist, and b) because it made a lot of sense considering that this looked like a spontaneous event, and I've written extensively about how unlikely it is for the Model S pack to spontaneously experience a cascade failure.

Given those factors, and given that I've never actually seen what the flames from a Model S battery fire looks like, the 12v option seemed best.

What I meant was there was absolutely no evidence the battery was involved up until the post I linked, which had the fire department mention a battery as a cause specifically. Before that, it was all speculation based on media reports, pictures/video, and the first Tesla press release, where any theory had pretty much an equal possibility of being true (we only know the front completely burned through, that the driver hit debris, but no other details).

And even right now we don't really know the cause, we only know the battery was involved. There's still plenty of questions: did the fire start in the main battery and how did it start, did fire/overheating from affected cells cause other undamaged cells to fail in the same module (required at minimum to qualify as cascading failure of a module), was there a pack/module/cell puncture or only deformation, etc.?

 

[texex91]

Some sane thoughts on us Tesla owners and stock is up $5 to almost $180...all is well:

"We do not expect this to derail near-term Model S orders and delivery momentum," Wedbush analyst Craig Irwin wrote in a note on Thursday. He wrote that most Model S buyers are tech-savvy or environmentally conscious early adopters. "We believe both groups will already understand the risks of a lithium fire and likely calibrate this recent event as of relatively minor importance."

 

[kevin99]

texex, I think you've probably assembled a record posting rate:

Join: Aug
Post: 1046

What do you do? Did you enter your record to the thread "What do you do for life"?

texex91

P85+ Member

Join DateAug 2013LocationHill Country - TexasPosts1,046