Drone Flyer
Active Member
And he also said AP1 will read stop signs and traffic lights! Still waiting for that.!
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Mihai
Member
After my incident with AP trying to crash me into a truck while passing, here is the investigation result from Tesla.
"We take your report very seriously and your reported incident has been escalated to, and reviewed by, the appropriate department within our company.
Data indicates that environmental and road conditions may have been affecting the performance of the Driver Assistance Systems at the time of the incident.
Data also indicates that Autosteer was aborted as expected due to driver overriding the system using the steering wheel.
As an alternative to disengage the Driver Assist Features the driver also may press the brake, or push the cruise control stalk lever forward to cancel Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control.
Please remember Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control are intended for use on highways by a fully attentive driver -- the driver must always remain alert, keep hands on the wheel and maintain control of the vehicle at all times.
We would like to highlight the sections of the Owner’s Manual relating to factors which may affect the operation of Driver Assistance Systems.
Many factors can impact the performance of Driver Assistance components, causing them to be unable to function as intended.
These include (but are not limited to):
• Poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
• Bright light (oncoming headlights or direct sunlight).
• Damage or obstructions caused by mud, ice, snow, etc.
• Interference or obstruction by object(s) mounted onto Model S (such as a bike rack).
• Obstruction caused by applying adhesive products onto Model S (such as wraps, stickers, rubber coating, etc.).
• Narrow or winding roads.
• A damaged or misaligned bumper.
• Interference from other equipment that generates ultrasonic waves.
• Extremely hot or cold temperatures.
Warning: The list above does not represent an exhaustive list of situations that may interfere with proper operation of Driver Assistance components.
Never depend on these components to keep you safe.
It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times.
Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen"
"We take your report very seriously and your reported incident has been escalated to, and reviewed by, the appropriate department within our company.
Data indicates that environmental and road conditions may have been affecting the performance of the Driver Assistance Systems at the time of the incident.
Data also indicates that Autosteer was aborted as expected due to driver overriding the system using the steering wheel.
As an alternative to disengage the Driver Assist Features the driver also may press the brake, or push the cruise control stalk lever forward to cancel Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control.
Please remember Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control are intended for use on highways by a fully attentive driver -- the driver must always remain alert, keep hands on the wheel and maintain control of the vehicle at all times.
We would like to highlight the sections of the Owner’s Manual relating to factors which may affect the operation of Driver Assistance Systems.
Many factors can impact the performance of Driver Assistance components, causing them to be unable to function as intended.
These include (but are not limited to):
• Poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
• Bright light (oncoming headlights or direct sunlight).
• Damage or obstructions caused by mud, ice, snow, etc.
• Interference or obstruction by object(s) mounted onto Model S (such as a bike rack).
• Obstruction caused by applying adhesive products onto Model S (such as wraps, stickers, rubber coating, etc.).
• Narrow or winding roads.
• A damaged or misaligned bumper.
• Interference from other equipment that generates ultrasonic waves.
• Extremely hot or cold temperatures.
Warning: The list above does not represent an exhaustive list of situations that may interfere with proper operation of Driver Assistance components.
Never depend on these components to keep you safe.
It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times.
Best regards, Mit freundlichen Grüßen"
What is the point of AP and FSD? If the car is supposed to drive and park itself and also fetch itself there is something wrong if the system does not see a Semi Truck. Is it just me that feels that way?
I read the docs but keep seeing all the promo video's from Tesla showing it self driving. If this is a NOVELTY then Tesla needs to change its marketing of the functions. No where does Tesla say these functions are a novelty.
Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.
Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.
Where does it say that this is a Novelty and not a self driving car?
I am a new MS 90D owner with the new AP 2.0 hardware. I read the entire manual, all Tesla sales and marketing materials, and hundreds of posts on these forums. I develop software for a living and I understand the concept of beta. I understand that when using AP, you keep your hands on the wheel and stay alert.
With all that said, I am dismayed at the attitude in these forums often taken towards drivers that have clearly experienced life threatening malfunctions of the AP software. The theme is "read the manual", "if you were paying attention, this would not have happened", "it's driver error", etc.
I appreciate the community warning new drivers about Truck Lust, but that does not absolve Tesla of the responsibility for this problem. It amazes me how much focus is placed on blaming the drivers on how they reacted to the car driving into a truck instead of why the car drove into the truck in the first place.
I think the attitude to blame drivers and absolve Tesla will discourage people from sharing and remove the focus from Tesla which is exactly where it belongs.
Tesla is selling the autopilot as a driver assistance feature that is suitable for highway driving . That means the car will steer itself going highway speeds in traffic. Imagine how it would affect sales if they would say "enhanced autopilot is a driver assistance feature. It will steer itself on the highway in traffic. Keep your hands on the wheel at all times. Please note, occasionally, for no valid reason, the car will suddenly and abruptly veer towards a truck that is in the right lane beside you. The Tesla community has lovingly dubbed this 'Truck Lust'. Enjoy your car."
I am hoping my new AP 2.0 does not suffer from this problem. I used AP 2.0 at the 45mph limit yesterday for the first time. It was shaky. It has a long way to go to gain my confidence even as an assistance feature. I understand it is early and I fully expect Tesla to get my car to the fully autonomous level that they sold to me. But there are a lot of AP 1.0 owners out there that deserve to have a car that does not drive itself into trucks. Put the pressure on Tesla where it belongs, not the drivers that share their experience with us.
With all that said, I am dismayed at the attitude in these forums often taken towards drivers that have clearly experienced life threatening malfunctions of the AP software. The theme is "read the manual", "if you were paying attention, this would not have happened", "it's driver error", etc.
I appreciate the community warning new drivers about Truck Lust, but that does not absolve Tesla of the responsibility for this problem. It amazes me how much focus is placed on blaming the drivers on how they reacted to the car driving into a truck instead of why the car drove into the truck in the first place.
I think the attitude to blame drivers and absolve Tesla will discourage people from sharing and remove the focus from Tesla which is exactly where it belongs.
Tesla is selling the autopilot as a driver assistance feature that is suitable for highway driving . That means the car will steer itself going highway speeds in traffic. Imagine how it would affect sales if they would say "enhanced autopilot is a driver assistance feature. It will steer itself on the highway in traffic. Keep your hands on the wheel at all times. Please note, occasionally, for no valid reason, the car will suddenly and abruptly veer towards a truck that is in the right lane beside you. The Tesla community has lovingly dubbed this 'Truck Lust'. Enjoy your car."
I am hoping my new AP 2.0 does not suffer from this problem. I used AP 2.0 at the 45mph limit yesterday for the first time. It was shaky. It has a long way to go to gain my confidence even as an assistance feature. I understand it is early and I fully expect Tesla to get my car to the fully autonomous level that they sold to me. But there are a lot of AP 1.0 owners out there that deserve to have a car that does not drive itself into trucks. Put the pressure on Tesla where it belongs, not the drivers that share their experience with us.
When is Tesla going to change the wording on their site if these features are only NOVELTIES?
This wording does not sound like a Novelty and I forked over my money for these promises:
All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.
This wording does not sound like a Novelty and I forked over my money for these promises:
All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.
@BestRadar - people are confusing EAP and FSD (both of which depend on the AP2.0 hardware). EAP is a driver assist mode that is ultimately said to have more capability than the AP1.0 cars. That is what was recently activated on the AP2.0 cars but with not all the features yet activated. EAP will never be a "hands off wheel" driving, nor is it meant to be.
FSD is what Tesla has shown in the videos and is supposed to drive you from home to work (or wherever) and then park itself autonomously. It is an option you can currently order but we have no idea when Tesla will release it. They have said they hope to so by the end of 2017 but many people have their doubts it will be done, tested, and approved by regulators in the next 11 months. Whenever it comes out, FSD is expected to be "hands off the wheel".
FSD is what Tesla has shown in the videos and is supposed to drive you from home to work (or wherever) and then park itself autonomously. It is an option you can currently order but we have no idea when Tesla will release it. They have said they hope to so by the end of 2017 but many people have their doubts it will be done, tested, and approved by regulators in the next 11 months. Whenever it comes out, FSD is expected to be "hands off the wheel".
I just personally feel Tesla will never get to this promised level and if they dont did not seem to take the OP's issue seriously. Any issue when the Tesla is in Auto Pilot needs to be taken seriously. People can die from AP's mistakes and what upsets me is that they focus so much on these functions when selling a car but then seem to downplay some AP's decisions.
my only theme is that people need to be able to assume manual control in an instant. the AP does get wonky at times and when it does it should be turned off. you're apparently unaware of some of the many foolish things that where done by many people demonstrating their new AP toy, culminating in a fatal crash where it is alleged that the driver was watching a video.
enjoy you new car and I hope that you appreciate this new technology's many limitations.
Exactly correct. There is no question that the videos of testing with FSD capability do create confusion among people with the currently delivered AP1 and AP2 (EAP) capabilities). At the end of the day, TACC is merely a smart cruise control that SHOULD detect the car in front of you slowing down and slow down accordingly vice just plowing into it. Automatic steering is a mode that SHOULD keep the car in it's lane and change to an adjoining lane when you command it by using the turn signal. Neither of those absolves people of the need to maintain control of the car any more than utilizing cruise control on a 1980 Chevy removes your responsibility to monitor and dis-engage cruise control or take other action if necessary.
The problem here is that the AP is so darn good, that people are trusting it far more than they should. The fact it has a documented tendency to swerve towards large trucks is an issue...but the software is in BETA and the users are agreeing to utilizing it in BETA when they activate the capability in their car. I agree that the finally deployed software should have that corrected, but at the end of the day, this is still test software and the system clearly tells you that before you can enable it on the car.
The problem here is that the AP is so darn good, that people are trusting it far more than they should. The fact it has a documented tendency to swerve towards large trucks is an issue...but the software is in BETA and the users are agreeing to utilizing it in BETA when they activate the capability in their car. I agree that the finally deployed software should have that corrected, but at the end of the day, this is still test software and the system clearly tells you that before you can enable it on the car.
I agree with both of the two previous posts. There is no question that the MOST IMPORTANT concept discussed in this thread is to stay alert and always be prepared to override the system. However, if we want this technology to advance, then we need to be vocal about it faults. Tesla has a problem with Truck Love and while it may be well documented in the forums, it did not appear to be officially acknowledged by Tesla. Am I wrong about that?
P85DBeast
Side tEsLa
This is what it says when you activate AP anyways but some people just shake this off. And ignore it and they SHOULDN'T!
(Not my photo)
PLUS: Small things like this will knock AP off!
(Not my photo)
PLUS: Small things like this will knock AP off!
Some situations require more attention than others. And different kinds of attention.
Example: When driving in a lane where a New Jersey Barrier or metal guide rail is located close to the lane markings, I hold the wheel all the time and pay close attention, as there is little time for error correction if AP makes a mistake.
Example: When passing a semi I look to the side a lot because AP passes trucks more closely than I would and the truck could move into my lane without AP detecting it (such as when passing the trailer), or just make a mistake in detecting a lane marking, or if the lane line between the semi and my S became poor or disappeared.
I love AP because I no longer have to make the minor adjustments to the steering wheel and the accelerator, which is tiring on long trips. I just have to look for the major things that could cause an accident. It is a great relief.
NHTSA says Tesla's with AP available are 40% safer than those without, whether or not AP is in use, and also says most accidents develop in less than 3 - 4 seconds.
Example: When driving in a lane where a New Jersey Barrier or metal guide rail is located close to the lane markings, I hold the wheel all the time and pay close attention, as there is little time for error correction if AP makes a mistake.
Example: When passing a semi I look to the side a lot because AP passes trucks more closely than I would and the truck could move into my lane without AP detecting it (such as when passing the trailer), or just make a mistake in detecting a lane marking, or if the lane line between the semi and my S became poor or disappeared.
I love AP because I no longer have to make the minor adjustments to the steering wheel and the accelerator, which is tiring on long trips. I just have to look for the major things that could cause an accident. It is a great relief.
NHTSA says Tesla's with AP available are 40% safer than those without, whether or not AP is in use, and also says most accidents develop in less than 3 - 4 seconds.
There seems to be two kinds of Truck Lust in this thread, one where the Tesla is next to the truck, the post that started this thread, and the other where you are behind the truck. Perhaps we should call the latter Pre-truck Lust and the former Truck Lust, as we are discussing completely different phenomena from the AP perspective. In Pre-truck Lust it seems lane marking detection is a major factor and radar is involved. In Truck Lust radar is no longer involved; lane marking detection is by the forward looking camera and software computes where the lane should be adjacent to the car, making it less accurate perhaps; and the sonar detectors are involved but only work when passing the tractor and wheels of the trailer and not between the wheels of the tractor and trailer.
By keeping the two separate we may be able to figure out the factors involved.
By keeping the two separate we may be able to figure out the factors involved.
Wait, I'm not familiar with what you're calling "pre-truck lust". Please explain what happens in that scenario.
This is by far the most sensible AP post I've read here in a long while. AP is an amazing feature and there is definitely more coming in the near future. Long term people more than likely will lose the option to drive. Which you may or may not like depending on who u r. The best thing that ALL tesla owners could do to help with progress is to get away from this defensive attitude regarding AP. It drives me crazy to have people jump quickly towards blaming users versus dealing with the reality that this an extremely difficult problem to solve and we r learning how to use it. Like any new technology there will be growing pains both in the state of the product and usage. In the case of AP, those pains can, has and will lead to loss of life. The solution/usage space is extremely large so there will be cases where when even used properly real issues can arise.
I think that a lot of tesla owners are so concerned about losing AP due to some legal action that they allow that concern to cloud their judgment on how to view post on AP problems. Please view them as valuable pieces of information that could help progress the technology and save your life. Yes there r plenty of people who don't use the feature correctly but in that noise there could be some very valuable information to u as a AP user to keep u safe and for tesla to keep everyone safe and progress AP. "Please Report All AP Problems To Tesla and share with the rest of the world what make sense to share.
I have a '16 refresh S with 15k miles on it. I can easily say over half r AP miles. I have a trip this weekend and will put another 1k AP miles on the car. I watched every you tube video I could on AP prior to trying the feature myself to help understand how the feature worked and how to stay safe.
I'm also in the tech business and trust me self driving cars r here to stay. There is way too much $ being thrown at this technology with Boat load of $ to be made. Please come clean on AP issues... and please listen and consider problems people report. We all need to know about them. Tesla needs to know about them.
Here is a simple thread I started on AP and quickly was deemed as an uninformed user versus AP not behaving correctly. Common on guys... we have to let this go! The system works incredibly well but is far from perfect. Let's help it to progress by being real about it!
Poor auto pilot behavior after annual service.
From what I read, the defensive attitude you describe usually comes up when the poster tries to blame the technology for their accident or near accident or if they were using the technology incorrectly such has hands off the wheel.
People with experience with AP know it's limitations and take responsibility for using it. That said, people should report their experiences; just use it as designed and avoid trying to shift responsibility.
I'm referring more to the posters who try to tell people who have had issues that it is completely their fault and will excuse tesla from responsibility of fixing/improving the feature. Yes there r folks that use it incorrectly, but there are cases even when used correctly where tesla needs to hear about. By not saying anything u r retarding progress
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