Model S Nominated for North American Car of the Year (2013)

[weccman]

Whether the gearheads of the world can overcome their love of rumbling V8s and vote for the Model S in the end -- well, that's to be seen.

Well, geez, they gave the award to the Volt last year!

 

[smoothoperator]

Hmmm...Karma not nominated for NACOTY?? why??

Electric-Car-Hating Top Gear Names Fisker Karma Luxury Car Of The Year

 

[kevincwelch]

I wouldn't consider the interior of the Model S to be luxurious at all. Functional, yes. Nice, yes.

 

[Citizen-T]

I wouldn't consider the interior of the Model S to be luxurious at all. Functional, yes. Nice, yes.

They are very careful to refer to Model S as a premium sedan, not a luxury sedan.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[kevincwelch]

They are very careful to refer to Model S as a premium sedan, not a luxury sedan.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Having owned neither, I am not sure I know what the distinctions are between a "premium" sedan and a "luxury" sedan.

 

[smoothoperator]

Having owned neither, I am not sure what the distinctions are between a "premium" sedan and a "luxury" sedan.

features and quality of materials....Model S is pretty barebones inside with regards to luxury features. The Karma is definitely more luxurious...

At 100k+ though, the Model S should really be a "luxury" sedan...Maybe premium at 57k.

 

[Citizen-T]

features and quality of materials....Model S is pretty barebones inside with regards to luxury features. The Karma is definitely more luxurious...

At 100k+ though, the Model S should really be a "luxury" sedan...Maybe premium at 57k.

I think that premium is more about having the latest tech and killer performance. Like a Nissan GTR or a Subaru WRX STI. Not about gliding you around in a Lazy Boy bolted to a cloud with a fridge full of champagne.

Obviously there is some overlap there though.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[dsm363]

The Model S is a $60,000 car with up to $20,000 extra in batteries so while the cost is the same as a $90k car, the interior is are in line with the $60k crowd. It should improve over time I would hope as battery costs come down and Tesla's margins remain intact.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Model S is a $60,000 car with up to $20,000 extra in batteries so while the cost is the same as a $90k car, the interior is are in line with the $60k crowd. It should improve over time I would hope as battery costs come down and Tesla's margins remain intact.

To put it even more accurately, the Model S is a $40,000 car with a $20k battery pack and can be optioned up to $20k extra in batteries.

The Fisker Karma is a $80k car with a $20k battery pack (for $100k base price). The Karma should be more luxurious given that price difference.

 

[dsm363]

To put it even more accurately, the Model S is a $40,000 car with a $20k battery pack and can be optioned up to $20k extra in batteries.

The Fisker Karma is a $80k car with a $20k battery pack (for $100k base price). The Karma should be more luxurious given that price difference.

You're right. I didn't account for the base battery pack. Makes it even more amazing what they've done. While it is fair and reasonable for people to look at two $80k cars (Model S 85 kWh and an S class Mercedes for example) and compare features, Mercedes has the advantage of pouring extra money into gadgets and the interior since going from an E-class to and S-class motor (could say same as going from 40 kWh to 85 kWh pack maybe) isn't a $20k engine upgrade.

My guess is that Tesla will likely do what Apple does (keep good/better/best pricing the same but upgrade the features) and use the cost savings from decreasing battery costs to improve the interior quality, add things like HUD display...etc and still keep their margins intact if possible. This is all speculation of course on my part since I'm not in the automotive field so maybe someone with expertise in this area could comment if that is a fair analysis of why the Model S 85 kWh car doesn't have the typical $80k interior quality. I'm fine with the interior from what I saw in the betas and online so far. Will finally see and drive the car in Chicago.

 

[smoothoperator]

To put it even more accurately, the Model S is a $40,000 car with a $20k battery pack and can be optioned up to $20k extra in batteries.

The Fisker Karma is a $80k car with a $20k battery pack (for $100k base price). The Karma should be more luxurious given that price difference.

This can be argued for ICE cars as well. an E350 has a 15k ICE, E550 20k ICE E63 40k ICE etc, yet the base model E350 has a more luxurious interior than the base model S....

The problem here is not the 40KwH Model S , it is the top of the line Model S that lacks options and creature comforts that a 100k car should have regardless of what powers it. Tesla has a bigger margins on the high end Model S' it is all not battery costs...The margin is significantly more on the performance Model S

 

[dsm363]

This can be argued for ICE cars as well. an E350 has a 15k ICE, E550 20k ICE E63 40k ICE etc

Is that increased cost all the engine upgrade or do the more expensive cars have nicer interiors, more features....etc?

 

[smoothoperator]

Is that increased cost all the engine upgrade or do the more expensive cars have nicer interiors, more features....etc?

The higher end german sedans do have nicer interiors & more features. Look at the Mercedes AMG models, BMW M models etc

But to begin with they had better interiors...why not make the Sig's a little bit more luxurious inside? Why do the one size fits all deal with these cars? I understand that Tesla is a small company and cannot do several trim models, but there has to be a little more differentiation in the interiors between the 57k model s and 107k model s.

 

[brianman]

gliding you around in a Lazy Boy bolted to a cloud with a fridge full of champagne.

What car is this? I want one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This can be argued for ICE cars as well. an E350 has a 15k ICE, E550 20k ICE E63 40k ICE etc, yet the base model E350 has a more luxurious interior than the base model S....

The problem here is not the 40KwH Model S , it is the top of the line Model S that lacks options and creature comforts that a 100k car should have regardless of what powers it. Tesla has a bigger margins on the high end Model S' it is all not battery costs...The margin is significantly more on the performance Model S

I doubt the 302 3.5L V6 in the E350 cost $15k, the 402hp 4.7L V8 in the E550 cost $20k, and the 518hp 6.3L V8 in the E63 cost $40k.
You can buy a 412hp 5.0L V8 crate engine from Ford for $7.3k. A 550hp 5.4L supercharged V8 for $21k. Keep in mind that Ford makes a profit on these engines and are selling to the public at this price.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/main.asp#mod

I'm separating the battery specifically because the electric motor alone is already roughly the same cost as an ICE. If you tried to source a 300kW induction motor (akin to buying a crate engine from Ford), it would cost you at least $20k, and that's assuming you get a group buy at high volume (100+). The threads below show companies are charging $34k for a 150kW motor and $50k for a 300kW. With a 100+ unit bulk buy you can get the price down to $11k for a complete 150kW ACP system (with the PEM).
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/looking-electric-motor-300kw-22718.html
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/real-price-ac-propulsions-ac-150-28400p2.html
http://www.kleenspeed.com/ev-components/

The battery is akin to a gas tank and a gas tank does not cost $20k-$40k.

 

[smoothoperator]

I doubt the 302 3.5L V6 in the E350 cost $15k, the 402hp 4.7L V8 in the E550 cost $20k, and the 518hp 6.3L V8 in the E63 cost $40k.
You can buy a 412hp 5.0L V8 crate engine from Ford for $7.3k. A 550hp 5.4L supercharged V8 for $21k. Keep in mind that Ford makes a profit on these engines and are selling to the public at this price.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11829

I'm separating the battery specifically because the electric motor alone is already roughly the same cost as an ICE. If you tried to source a 300kW induction motor (akin to buying a crate engine from Ford), it would cost you at least $20k, and that's assuming you get a group buy at high volume (100+). The threads below show companies are charging $34k for a 150kW motor and $50k for a 300kW. With a 100+ unit bulk buy you can get the price down to $11k for a complete 150kW ACP system (with the PEM).
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/looking-electric-motor-300kw-22718.html
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/real-price-ac-propulsions-ac-150-28400p2.html
http://www.kleenspeed.com/ev-components/

The battery is akin to a gas tank and a gas tank does not cost $20k-$40k.

Those motors do cost that much, I have had an engine replacement on an AMG wagon about 8 years ago and the warrantied cost was 40k (E55 AMG Handmade Motor)

Domestic engines are a lot cheaper than European automotive engines.

The biggest cost in the Model S is the battery not the Electric Motor. Tesla has used the analogy that if you do not plug in your vehicle when the battery has been depleted, that is akin to running your ICE with no oil. The relationship between an ICE powertrain & an EV powertrain is not as cut and dry as the way you have described it (i.e battery = gas tank). If this were true then Tesla would not be making the analogy between running out of oil and depleted batteries.

 

[richkae]

I doubt the 302 3.5L V6 in the E350 cost $15k, the 402hp 4.7L V8 in the E550 cost $20k, and the 518hp 6.3L V8 in the E63 cost $40k.
You can buy a 412hp 5.0L V8 crate engine from Ford for $7.3k. A 550hp 5.4L supercharged V8 for $21k. Keep in mind that Ford makes a profit on these engines and are selling to the public at this price.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/main.asp#mod

I'm separating the battery specifically because the electric motor alone is already roughly the same cost as an ICE. If you tried to source a 300kW induction motor (akin to buying a crate engine from Ford), it would cost you at least $20k, and that's assuming you get a group buy at high volume (100+). The threads below show companies are charging $34k for a 150kW motor and $50k for a 300kW. With a 100+ unit bulk buy you can get the price down to $11k for a complete 150kW ACP system (with the PEM).
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/looking-electric-motor-300kw-22718.html
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/real-price-ac-propulsions-ac-150-28400p2.html
http://www.kleenspeed.com/ev-components/

The battery is akin to a gas tank and a gas tank does not cost $20k-$40k.

100 units is not high volume. 100,000 units is high volume.
Ford manufactures the parts for their motors by the million. When EV motors are made by the hundreds of thousands the price will drop by an order of magnitude.

The Ford motor is made in a factory that probably makes a half a million engines a year. You can't compare that to a handmade ICE or a handmade electric.

 

[jeffhre]

100 units is not high volume. 100,000 units is high volume.
Ford manufactures the parts for their motors by the million. When EV motors are made by the hundreds of thousands the price will drop by an order of magnitude.

The Ford motor is made in a factory that probably makes a half a million engines a year. You can't compare that to a handmade ICE or a handmade electric.

This is a very important point for EV's. Not simply the motor, but all of the parts that are low volume and are used to replace the ICE and supporting components. I's not just the battery cost but a hundred years of optimizing costs for the entire ICE process, systems and technologies.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Those motors do cost that much, I have had an engine replacement on an AMG wagon about 8 years ago and the warrantied cost was 40k (E55 AMG Handmade Motor)

Domestic engines are a lot cheaper than European automotive engines.

I'm just pointing out the Ford engines because it can't cost Daimler that much more than for them make their engines (esp. for the lower end non-AMG models, which are definitely mass produced, they sold 340k E/CLS class last year).

The biggest cost in the Model S is the battery not the Electric Motor. Tesla has used the analogy that if you do not plug in your vehicle when the battery has been depleted, that is akin to running your ICE with no oil. The relationship between an ICE powertrain & an EV powertrain is not as cut and dry as the way you have described it (i.e battery = gas tank). If this were true then Tesla would not be making the analogy between running out of oil and depleted batteries.

I'm not saying the electric motor makes up the biggest cost of the Model S, I'm saying the battery does at $20-40k. But my main point in the second paragraph was that the electric motor alone will cost the same as an ICE!

Plus I tried configuring the interior for the E350, E550, and E63 AMG. There were no differences in the interior between the models besides from the cloth/leather/AMG leather options and accent trim material options. So Tesla is not doing any thing different from Mercedes in that regard.

100 units is not high volume. 100,000 units is high volume.
Ford manufactures the parts for their motors by the million. When EV motors are made by the hundreds of thousands the price will drop by an order of magnitude.

The Ford motor is made in a factory that probably makes a half a million engines a year. You can't compare that to a handmade ICE or a handmade electric.

That's certainly true, but the point was EV motors (including Tesla's) are not made in the hundreds of thousands. So at this point they cost the same as (or more than) an ICE.

 

[JRod0802]

The higher end german sedans do have nicer interiors & more features. Look at the Mercedes AMG models, BMW M models etc

But to begin with they had better interiors...why not make the Sig's a little bit more luxurious inside? Why do the one size fits all deal with these cars? I understand that Tesla is a small company and cannot do several trim models, but there has to be a little more differentiation in the interiors between the 57k model s and 107k model s.

While in principle I agree, the Model S put Tesla in a situation where Tesla had to release a quality, functional car on time that could be produced at up to 20,000 units per year. Those criteria were far and away the number 1 priorities. Tesla has meet those criteria (well, they're still working on ramping up production, but I have faith). I'm more than impressed with the job they've done so far. I'd cut them a little slack. I'm sure the Gen III car have all the less important things that the Model S missed out on.

As Elon has said from the beginning, it takes three iterations to really figure out how to do something perfectly (just like in software). By the time they get to the mass market car (Gen III), it should be comparable or better in almost every way to a BMW, Audi or Lexus.