Model S Plaid Nurburgring lap time

[Dolemite]

Kindly requesting we leave this here as there aren't really any other track-oriented people or sub forums, as far as I know... Some valid thoughts on this front would be good to hear.

Maybe I had unrealistic expectations, but I was hoping for a better time. Apparently the record was set by some Swedish driver named Andreas Simonsen - seems legit? But the Nurburgring is no joke & one's familiarity with it can make a huge difference over a course that long.

Based on Wikipedia, the time matches that of an M5 CS (7:35), which is ~400 lbs lighter but has roughly ~400 hp less. Other random thoughts:

• Elon claims car was stock config straight off the factory floor (although the driver clearly has a seat)
• Seems like it was able to pull off the lap w/o heat problems, but we don't know the ambient temps
• The car's full 200+ mph potential still hasn't been unlocked, but not sure that would make that much of a difference
• BMW M5 CS comes with 275 front/285 rear Pirelli P Zero PZ4s
• Model S Plaid comes with 265 front/295 rear, I believe Michelin PS4Ss?
• Elon says that there's going to be some sort of "track" package with ceramic brakes, tires, and aero. That'll probably make a significant difference & is one area where we fall WAY short of what BMW's ///M division puts out. All of our cars are basically the same standard mommy config from the factory... Tesla doesn't yet have a true skunkworks division & our OEM suspension is pretty basic.
• Steering wheel is the dumbest idea ever and probably cost 20 seconds due to the sheer pants-shitting nature of something like that on a regular road car.

What do you guys think?

 

[Nosken]

Moderators-Maybe this would be better in another place than Model 3 > Model 3: Driving Dynamics

 

[jjrandorin]

@Dolemite

Model S plaid lap times are not a model 3 topic, so not sure why you think they should go here. I mean, I read your "kindly leave this here because there are more track people here" but that doesnt make it relevant for model 3.

There is a model S driving dymanics subforum:

Model S: Driving Dynamics

performance, drivetrain, traction/stability control, brakes, suspension, tires, safety

teslamotorsclub.com

And there are model S plaid owners in the model S section, so any way I look at it, that is the proper location, not this one... which is why I am moving the thread to that location

 

[Dolemite]

kay. Anyone here tracking their Model S or otherwise has road course experience/expertise?

 

[Kimmi]

Is speed display KPH or MPH?

 

[JADCa]

Speed is kph.

The driver is very good and knows the track quite well.

The yoke would not be an issue on that track.

It did seem he was over driving slightly, not getting on the power quite as soon as would be ideal for the plaid. Then again he is probably a better driver than I am and it is really hard to tell when he does things as the car is so quiet. There is always more time on that track but he isn't leaving a ton out there.

Better tires could make a very big difference as would the speed limiter.

 

[Mash]

When you look at full video it's very obvious why it was slow:
1. He is braking very early to not overheat brakes.
2. Suspension is too soft and doesn't hold the car at all, so the speed in turns is very low.
3. Car is unstable at high speed so he has to slow down.
4. Tires overheated at first 30% of lap, so there is no traction after that and traction control interfere.
5. Unfortunately, it also clearly overheats and pulls back power.

1-4 is relatively easy to fix (if there is any space for larger tires), 5 is going to be a problem. Built version should be half a minute faster, but it won't come close to gt2rs times. Pilot has balls made of stainless steel.

I hope that Roadster will be done for a track job first and not for gt purposes.

 

[ICUDoc]

When you look at full video it's very obvious why it was slow:
1. He is braking very early to not overheat brakes.
2. Suspension is too soft and doesn't hold the car at all, so the speed in turns is very low.
3. Car is unstable at high speed so he has to slow down.
4. Tires overheated at first 30% of lap, so there is no traction after that and traction control interfere.
5. Unfortunately, it also clearly overheats and pulls back power.

I am no race driver, so I shan't argue with you at all about the technique / details. But it seems to me that, whilst seeking more is always the way, the bare-bones fact that the Tesla did the lap in 7:30 /7:35 is OUTSTANDING. Even more spectacular given the criticisms of the car and driver that you have put forward.

 

[Dolemite]

When you look at full video it's very obvious why it was slow:
1. He is braking very early to not overheat brakes.
2. Suspension is too soft and doesn't hold the car at all, so the speed in turns is very low.
3. Car is unstable at high speed so he has to slow down.
4. Tires overheated at first 30% of lap, so there is no traction after that and traction control interfere.
5. Unfortunately, it also clearly overheats and pulls back power.

1-4 is relatively easy to fix (if there is any space for larger tires), 5 is going to be a problem. Built version should be half a minute faster, but it won't come close to gt2rs times. Pilot has balls made of stainless steel.

I hope that Roadster will be done for a track job first and not for gt purposes.

How can you tell on (5)?

Forgot to mention the Roadster and agree 100%. I’m hopeful it’ll end up being the fastest production car around the ring, but now I’m not so sure. Maybe a built one? We’ll see what Rimac can do, but who the hell’s going to go full send in a $2.4 M car?

 

[JADCa]

I am sorry but 7:30 is not slow by any measure for a 5 passenger, 4 door sedan that is stock. Can it go a bit faster, sure, but still an incredibly fast time for a nice family car.

 

[Richbot]

Speed is kph.

The driver is very good and knows the track quite well.

The yoke would not be an issue on that track.

It did seem he was over driving slightly, not getting on the power quite as soon as would be ideal for the plaid. Then again he is probably a better driver than I am and it is really hard to tell when he does things as the car is so quiet. There is always more time on that track but he isn't leaving a ton out there.

Better tires could make a very big difference as would the speed limiter.

The car only hits the speed limiter a couple times, and only significant period is on the back/pit/touristfahr entry straight. Might drop a couple seconds. All that extra speed has to be shed so you're just braking earlier and managing the brakes more. On those tires, with no aero, and 5000lb of ground hugging mass, those corners on the straights are CORNERS. I was amazed how much he was having to drive the car on the run up the hill to the back half of the track. In a regular 3500lb car on track tires those might be a breathe out of the throttle and back on it, and he's chucking 20+kph out the window to make those slight corners.

IIRC the back straight from a bit after the bridge where it hits the limiter to Tiergarten is about a kilometer long (he has to lift for Tiergarten). So, the difference between 268kph and 300kph down that straight is only about 1.5 seconds. Assuming you can do an average of 300kph for the whole klick, which I'm sure Plaid probably could

Needs a true track tire and the driver seems to be lifting pretty early for brake zones as well to manage the brakes through the lap. And the car's aero definitely isn't helping either. It's an airfoil. Fix that stuff and the limiter might actually start limiting the car somewhere other than the back straight

PS4S need to be overdriven a bit to get the most out of them in my experience (which means the best way to get the most out of a track day on them is to under-drive them, or you'll destroy them in a session) but if you want every last tenth out of them, they need to be leaned on quite hard

 

[Richbot]

I am sorry but 7:30 is not slow by any measure for a 5 passenger, 4 door sedan that is stock. Can it go a bit faster, sure, but still an incredibly fast time for a nice family car.

IIRC the only quicker sedans on the list were on Cup tires (I'm like 99% sure the AMG GT sedan was on Cup2's or Pzero Corsas)

Serious brake setup, a deep splitter and wing like the PPIHC car got, and some true track tires...it'll be a pretty awesome lap.

Also, lest we forget, the AMG GT sedan with all the goodies is a $200+k car. The Panamera is the same deal. The Plaid is a performance bargain at $130k plus a few bolt-ons, maybe $150k if you really go wild with the mods?

'merica!

 

[Richbot]

Also, check out the over-optimistic speed on the dashboard vs. true GPS speed on the AIM dash. Looks like about 10kph high on the car's IP vs. the datalogger

 

[Mash]

I am no race driver, so I shan't argue with you at all about the technique / details. But it seems to me that, whilst seeking more is always the way, the bare-bones fact that the Tesla did the lap in 7:30 /7:35 is OUTSTANDING. Even more spectacular given the criticisms of the car and driver that you have put forward.

Well, normal person won't be able to come anywhere close to that time with stock setup without a crash.

Considering it's the fastest accelerating car in the world, it's almost a minute slower than gt2rs. And judging by the video, in stock form, it's absolutely horrible experience. 1/4 mile is impressive, Ring record is painful to watch.

It's not a track car. I'm not even sure that if you change a suspension, brakes, steering wheel and aero it will become one. It's a gt car - fast highway sedan. Time doesn't matter. Miata is a track car, doesn't matter that it won't do it fast, but you will have a lot of fun. Model 3 is a good short track car and a lot of fun. That video is not fun and whole record is pointless.

 

[Mash]

I am sorry but 7:30 is not slow by any measure for a 5 passenger, 4 door sedan that is stock. Can it go a bit faster, sure, but still an incredibly fast time for a nice family car.

Honda Civic and Renault Megane with FWD do comparable times...

I'm not even talking about Panamera or AMG GT beating it by a lot. All those are 4 doors nice family cars.

Honestly, 1/4 below 10 is impressive. 7:35 with such an enormous power range is not.

 

[juanmedina]

Honda Civic and Renault Megane with FWD do comparable times...

I'm not even talking about Panamera or AMG GT beating it by a lot. All those are 4 doors nice family cars.

Honestly, 1/4 below 10 is impressive. 7:35 with such an enormous power range is not.

All of them on cup 2 wider tires and still weight less with carbon ceramic brakes the Panamera and the GT. How do you feel about the Taycan time?

 

[Mash]

All of them on cup 2 wider tires and still weight less with carbon ceramic brakes the Panamera and the GT. How do you feel about the Taycan time?

Yeah, but those cars are stock as well.

I care about numbers much less than the feel. We did 7:45 btg on Model 3. With more time and closed track it would be 7:40 full lap. With 3.5 times lower power/weight vs Plaid and total cost lower than Plaid.

Despite common beliefs, Cup 2 is harder rubber so takes more beating, but even on model 3 with 275x35 19 size it overheats on the Ring. It's a track day street tire. 4S is not significantly worse on the track and much better on the street. And changing to Cup2 you might win another 2 seconds, but the ride is still going to be a total BS.

Taycan is much lower power than Plaid and it's setup as Panamera EV, so quite soft, but video looks like much more fun than Plaid.

 

[juanmedina]

Yeah, but those cars are stock as well.

I care about numbers much less than the feel. We did 7:45 btg on Model 3. With more time and closed track it would be 7:40 full lap. With 3.5 times lower power/weight vs Plaid and total cost lower than Plaid.

Despite common beliefs, Cup 2 is harder rubber so takes more beating, but even on model 3 with 275x35 19 size it overheats on the Ring. It's a track day street tire. 4S is not significantly worse on the track and much better on the street. And changing to Cup2 you might win another 2 seconds, but the ride is still going to be a total BS.

Taycan is much lower power than Plaid and it's setup as Panamera EV, so quite soft, but video looks like much more fun than Plaid.

I don't see Cup2 tires as an option for the Panamera Turbo S.

This discussion reminds me of this video:

 

[MrHopsing]

Yeah, the Panamera times are a little bit on the edge imo. They haven’t delivered any Panameras on the Cup 2’s that I’m aware of. And I can’t find the tires in the configurator, or at least in my country. And the panamera also had a aftermarket bucket seat, just like the S. So I guess that’s just a safety requirement with bucket and proper harness.

 

[juanmedina]

Yeah, the Panamera times are a little bit on the edge imo. They haven’t delivered any Panameras on the Cup 2’s that I’m aware of. And I can’t find the tires in the configurator, or at least in my country. And the panamera also had a aftermarket bucket seat, just like the S. So I guess that’s just a safety requirement with bucket and proper harness.

It also had active anti roll bars I am not sure if that's standard either. The tires are also wider on the front and the back than the Plaid and the Plaid.
2021 Porsche Panamera Sets Record at the Nürburgring