Model S90D Battery Degradation?

[SilverString]

day 1 of life new vehicle 2017 model s 90d full charge 294 mi.

2 years later it is 274 mi.

Normal daily use of car with charging set mainly to 80 percent max. Slow trickle charge at work 4 mi/hr mainly.

Is this within the realm of normal or accepted degradation? Or do I need to check with Tesla about battery issue?

That's actually good. Certainly within the normal range. I have a 5.6% degradation on my 2019 MS and Tesla says that is also normal.

 

[emir-t]

67k miles update. Very little DC charging. Roughly 1,500kWh DC / 24,000kWh AC charging. Those DC charges are not Supercharger, mostly CCS or ChaDeMo so 75kW or 48kW. (Because I'm living in no Superchargers zone)

EU car, so typical range displayed at 100% is 411km. That equates to 77kWh Nominal pack full capacity from BMS. So 73kWh usable. In real world scenario if I hit the road and never stop until battery is depleted I could extract maybe 71-72kWh from it. If I was driving around town over the course of 3 days or so and parking overnight etc I could maybe get 60-65kWh from it. From my 90D

Not that it renders the car unusable, still 180miles highway, 240miles city range is enough for me, but it hurts to see older 85 packs having better capacity. This is now exactly 9,84% loss in exactly 3,5 years / 67k miles since production.

 

[supratachophobia]

I was going to buy a 2016 Tesla with 23k miles. The battery at 100% was 261 miles. I spoke to Tesla (I physically visited a service center since I couldn't get someone on the phone after three days). They said this was normal and fine. That's an 11% drop over four years and not a lot of miles. I didn't buy the car for this reason.

Is that really "normal?!?" (Based on the above post, Tesla claims this is normal and okay)

Stay away from the 90 packs. Just because it says 261, doesn't mean anything. That car won't do over 240miles at 290wpm consumption (EPA rating).

 

[supratachophobia]

Several sites have been gathering data from users for a while. Here's one:
Battery Survey « Plug In America

11% is little on the high side, but 5-10% degradation is not unusual. I have a 2016 Model S 90D with around 27K miles.

My 90% is currently 261 miles. It had 0% degradation until last fall when I charged to 95% after the battery conditioning update. My 90% was 268 miles from when it was new to that point. Later on that same trip I had a leg of about 200 miles with no significant wind and only minor elevation changes, I averaged right around 285 Wh/Mi (which is the EPA rating for the early refresh Model S 90Ds). My miles driven plus miles remaining was 267 when I got to the next supercharger (I started with 90% charge).

I've had no changes since last October.

But battery packs can vary. Some are low degradation and others aren't as lucky. A sudden degradation is usually a sign something is wrong with the pack, but a slow decline to 11% is just an faster aging pack. Some people have seen a sudden drop out of nowhere of 15% or so and once they can convince the service center something is wrong, they usually get the pack replaced under warranty.

But with a used car you didn't know if it had been sudden or slow.

EPA on the 90, pre-refresh is 290.

 

[wdolson]

Stay away from the 90 packs. Just because it says 261, doesn't mean anything. That car won't do over 240miles at 290wpm consumption (EPA rating).

With a 90% charge I get better than 240 miles. I looked today and my Wh/Mi since early October last year is 293 Wh/Mi

 

[supratachophobia]

With a 90% charge I get better than 240 miles. I looked today and my Wh/Mi since early October last year is 293 Wh/Mi

Yes, but a full charge includes the 4kw buffer in it's calculation. When your get before 20%, it removes that 4kw so that 0 on the dash means 4kw in the buffer which is not really usable anyway. They fudge the numbers on the high end.

 

[Flyer1]

Well said, supratachophobia. I have Tesla spy and se how range is calculated when battery is full with total nominal batterycapasity, like i would be able to use all including the 3.5kWh buffer. But in the end car calculates with much higher consumption and i get less range on display. When it show 0 km left i only have the buffer left im my S90D , Its 3.5kWh left and cell voltage about 3.02 while driving.

I have driven below zero km about 5km and was using the buffer ! I had the yelow dotted line showing max posible output shoving about 160kW and i know people how has driven until its down to 30kW where it dies. I problably could have driven 10km more at least at slow speed. weekest cells were att 3.00volt when i reached the supercharger. So i guess you nowadays can use the buffer, below 0 km, if you are careful and dont push harder than the dotted yellow max output limit.
My S90D -16 120.000km Show nominal capasity 77.5kwh (inkluding at least partly available buffer 3.5kwh)

 

[Cal1]

We have a 2017 Sept build 90D. From day one, our daily max charge consistently reached 265 miles. In the past we rarely supercharged and never trip charged at home or at the charger. Over the past couple of months we've trip charged (296 miles) about 4 times. Once at home and the others at a super charger. Noticed our daily range charge has now dropped to 262. Coincident or a result of using the max charge setting? Oh yea we just got 2020.36.3.1 update

 

[supratachophobia]

Well said, supratachophobia. I have Tesla spy and se how range is calculated when battery is full with total nominal batterycapasity, like i would be able to use all including the 3.5kWh buffer. But in the end car calculates with much higher consumption and i get less range on display. When it show 0 km left i only have the buffer left im my S90D , Its 3.5kWh left and cell voltage about 3.02 while driving.

I have driven below zero km about 5km and was using the buffer ! I had the yelow dotted line showing max posible output shoving about 160kW and i know people how has driven until its down to 30kW where it dies. I problably could have driven 10km more at least at slow speed. weekest cells were att 3.00volt when i reached the supercharger. So i guess you nowadays can use the buffer, below 0 km, if you are careful and dont push harder than the dotted yellow max output limit.
My S90D -16 120.000km Show nominal capasity 77.5kwh (inkluding at least partly available buffer 3.5kwh)

Others should keep in mind that the car in that 4kw buffer is undrivable. There is no accelleration power whatsoever and a sudden heavy draw could cause a shutdown.

 

[supratachophobia]

Well said, supratachophobia. I have Tesla spy and se how range is calculated when battery is full with total nominal batterycapasity, like i would be able to use all including the 3.5kWh buffer. But in the end car calculates with much higher consumption and i get less range on display. When it show 0 km left i only have the buffer left im my S90D , Its 3.5kWh left and cell voltage about 3.02 while driving.

I have driven below zero km about 5km and was using the buffer ! I had the yelow dotted line showing max posible output shoving about 160kW and i know people how has driven until its down to 30kW where it dies. I problably could have driven 10km more at least at slow speed. weekest cells were att 3.00volt when i reached the supercharger. So i guess you nowadays can use the buffer, below 0 km, if you are careful and dont push harder than the dotted yellow max output limit.
My S90D -16 120.000km Show nominal capasity 77.5kwh (inkluding at least partly available buffer 3.5kwh)

Interesting yours says 3.5kwh. I'm going to look at mine and see if they changed something in the software. Because if they did, more shadiness.

 

[cduzz]

I can say that a couple months of only charging at supercharger stations has had a much greater impact on my car's estimated range than a year of charging on a 208/30a charger every couple days.

I've got an early 2016 90d that I got last year in june and it charged to 277 (or, more correctly it'd charge to 250 at 90%); as of june of this year it'd pretty consistently charge to 251 at 90% and would achieve this range if asked (give or take); I recently have been in a situation where I basically *only* supercharge; I tend to charge when it gets to between 30% and 12% and typically charge to 60-80% (IE I stop charging when the taper gets to 80). In the 2 months of my doing this the 90% has gone to roughly 248. Possibly it'd come back I switch back to the prior charging pattern, possibly I've just worn the battery by changing the charging pattern.

Regardless, the car's a tool and it's still really well suited to what I use it for -- which is either as a medium distance urban commuter where the ability to accelerate quickly and safely haul the kids to school is nice, and it is also really well suited to driving 100 miles in tedious traffic (or not) where it is fast and quiet and even AP1 works to remove 80% of the driving tedium.