Packwood is about 14 usable acres if you measure right to the edge of the pavement, about 12 if you leave any runoff room. PIR south paddock is 5. Lincoln is 35. Where are you running!?
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MPP compression rod and control arm bearings.
- Thread starter SFLM3P19
- Start date
Given your postings, I would strongly recommend that you go for the MPP Sports. They can be quite comfortable or they can be set up to be virtual track monsters. They're still not enough for a full-time race car build out but anything short of that they're more than good enough. You'll discover that the much better shock control and the elimination of premature Bump Stop recruitment is worth a whole lot more than just lowering the car. You get significant reduction of roll, understeer, and in combination with the front lower control arm bushing, delightfully communicative steering and great turn in. If you incorporate the great suggestions and feedback from MasterC17 about tire pressure and camber, collectively all of this will transform how your car handles. And the best part is you won't pay a big ride penalty if any. And when you decide that being in the poorhouse is a perfectly normal and acceptable outcome, and you get some forged wheels, you'll recover any lost ride suppleness and compliance. Unless you set the shocks to real low numbers
Yes the PS4's really can't handle much heat. So camber becomes really critical to avoid chunking and destroying the outer tread. Otherwise, given how expensive they are these days it works out to about 400 bucks a hot lap. If you've got cool days or even better yet rainy days, they hold up a whole lot better.
Lindenwood
Active Member
I do suppose the MPP site says this: “With the compression and rebound adjustment turned down the ride is more comfortable than OEM suspension.”
Does that match your observations!
For some reason I thought Packwood was 42. Maybe thats the entire property?Packwood is about 14 usable acres if you measure right to the edge of the pavement, about 12 if you leave any runoff room. PIR south paddock is 5. Lincoln is 35. Where are you running!?
I'll put down the crack pipe now...
Yes set at the default even (10/12 on compression and rebound) I believe overall the car rides better than stock. You can soften it of course further from there.
Lindenwood
Active Member
Interesting!
How high to you have to crank up the Comforts to get stiffer than stock?
*edit*
I guess what I am really getting at…
I suppose I can reasonably plan for perhaps 9ish racing days per year for the next few years (unless a future move gets me closer to a track). There aren’t really any fun roads near me.
1) For those occasional events, could I crank up the Adjustable Comforts to get even modestly stiffer than stock (and is that particularly valuable?) the few days per year I do an event?
2) As a follow-on question on the value of overall damper stiffness… I am sensing that the ability to tune camber and toe independently will have a more profound impact on times than just adjustable Coilovers. Is that accurate?
Ultimately, I am willing to spend the money on the Camber and Toe arms now if it means I can go from a supple daily / road trip ride on Comforts but quickly dial in negative camber, zero out the toe, and twist the Comforts toward the stiffer end for a decent track setup. I often have to slow from 40-45 down to 20-25mph during my commute on rougher sections. If I can reduce that requirement for daily ops, that would be nice as well.
Does this seem reasonable?
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Not sure but I'm sure that Jesse could give you the exact number in terms of where the Comfort adjustables are to equal the stock OEM and then Comfort non adjustables. The stock rebound control is so soft however I suspect you'd have to back way off on the Comfort Adjustables to get to that if you really wanted to be that squishy. My recollection is that our 2018 cars had a big disparity between fairly stiff compression control and really flaccid rebound control. That plus a ton of unsprung weight in the 20-inch wheels, and premature recruitment of the bump stops made for a pretty marginal ride and not great handling. Between the lighter rotors the slightly lighter coilover kit versus the stock set up and the much lighter Wheels I'd estimate I've trimmed probably at least 15 lb a corner. That unsprung weight loss makes a big difference particularly in ride but also in handling and tracking. That's why I encouraged you to think in terms of forged wheels. Like it says on that spoiler you'll never financially recover from this Hobby
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Sorry I missed the second part of all that. The Comfort adjustables can be cranked so that there are actually really quite stiff. Again Jessie could advise you better than I might be able to on some of the specific details here but I don't think you'd be unhappy with either set up. The sport adjustable is pretty comfortable set at the default 10/12 and the Comfort adjustable set at the default is really kind of liquid in its ride. But it still got way better control then the OEM setup The big difference of course between the two kits is the spring rates. The Comfort Adjustables actually have softer spring rates than stock at least in the back I believe, not sure about the front. As I've emphasized and other people have emphasized the real payoff in a coilover kit from KW that's been tuned up by MPP is in the shocks.
@Lindenwood I want to emphasize what @dfwatt has been saying - a simple "stiffer" vs "softer" comparison is inadequate to compare a good aftermarket suspension to the stock Model 3 suspension. At least for 2021 cars which is what I have experience with - I've read that older Model 3's like @dfwatt's had overall stiffer suspension tuning from the factory (but maybe not better, unclear to me).
The stock damping is just really, really bad. I don't know how to sugarcoat it. As someone with lots of twisty roads around, it took me barely a handful of turns on my test drive to get the car literally bouncing and swaying out of control. The weight was all over the place, completely out of sync with the turns and my inputs. This was obviously a 100% stock car (a demo car), so as you add grip the poor damping will presumably get worse.
Yet the ride quality stock was nothing special either. Perfectly acceptable to me, yes, but kind of bouncy and busy and you felt the road as if it were a sporty suspension...but then push it hard and it became clear it wasn't a sporty suspension.
The M3P I bought drove exactly the same. So I don't think anything was wrong with the demo car or my car, that's just how bad the damping is on these cars for truly hard, challenging driving with lots of tight back-and-forth turns. Even in fast smooth sweeping ramps it had very delayed steering reactions and never felt totally settled...but there you could at least exploit all of the car's grip easily.
Now how much does this actually matter for autox lap times, I can't tell you. The weight not being settled has to matter some. But maybe just as big an impact would be lack of driver confidence or control.
I have the Redwood Performance Sport coilovers, which I think have similar goals as the MPP Sports. Overall yes the car can definitely ride better than stock when set of the softer end of the dampers. That bounciness of the stock damping is gone, and it rides much better over big bumps and dips. However be aware that stiffer springs will always be stiffer springs. No matter how soft you adjust the dampers to, if you go slow over bad pavement, stiffer springs just won't compress much to absorb it, where sometimes the softer stock springs could. At least I'm 99% sure that's what I've felt. That is the only ride quality downside I've experienced with stiffer springs + good dampers. The solution is simple of course: drive faster and harder and the ride literally smooths out. Or go for a GT / Comfort kit that presumably has stock-like spring rates combined with good damping...
I think a Sport kit would be worth it for your track or autox use, and you'd be fine with it on the street. But it would be an easier decision if you also had good twisty roads around to enjoy it with on the street. Honestly you'll probably be happy either way (Sport or Comfort/GT).
The stock damping is just really, really bad. I don't know how to sugarcoat it. As someone with lots of twisty roads around, it took me barely a handful of turns on my test drive to get the car literally bouncing and swaying out of control. The weight was all over the place, completely out of sync with the turns and my inputs. This was obviously a 100% stock car (a demo car), so as you add grip the poor damping will presumably get worse.
Yet the ride quality stock was nothing special either. Perfectly acceptable to me, yes, but kind of bouncy and busy and you felt the road as if it were a sporty suspension...but then push it hard and it became clear it wasn't a sporty suspension.
The M3P I bought drove exactly the same. So I don't think anything was wrong with the demo car or my car, that's just how bad the damping is on these cars for truly hard, challenging driving with lots of tight back-and-forth turns. Even in fast smooth sweeping ramps it had very delayed steering reactions and never felt totally settled...but there you could at least exploit all of the car's grip easily.
Now how much does this actually matter for autox lap times, I can't tell you. The weight not being settled has to matter some. But maybe just as big an impact would be lack of driver confidence or control.
I have the Redwood Performance Sport coilovers, which I think have similar goals as the MPP Sports. Overall yes the car can definitely ride better than stock when set of the softer end of the dampers. That bounciness of the stock damping is gone, and it rides much better over big bumps and dips. However be aware that stiffer springs will always be stiffer springs. No matter how soft you adjust the dampers to, if you go slow over bad pavement, stiffer springs just won't compress much to absorb it, where sometimes the softer stock springs could. At least I'm 99% sure that's what I've felt. That is the only ride quality downside I've experienced with stiffer springs + good dampers. The solution is simple of course: drive faster and harder and the ride literally smooths out.
Or go for a GT / Comfort kit that presumably has stock-like spring rates combined with good damping...I think a Sport kit would be worth it for your track or autox use, and you'd be fine with it on the street. But it would be an easier decision if you also had good twisty roads around to enjoy it with on the street. Honestly you'll probably be happy either way (Sport or Comfort/GT).
Lindenwood
Active Member
Let me just also add that we run both of our cars at the lowest possible tire PSI around town (~38 cold) that avoids the TPMS nannies and where squeezing the last bit of range out of the car is not so important and ride is more important. We bump it up a couple of pounds for road trips. What people don't seem to be aware of is that the pressures Tesla is recommending really reduce your contact patch such that the car not only rides more poorly but has quicker and more abrupt breakaway and lower limits in the corners. With the PS4S, I believe that the best overall grip is probably around 34 to 35 lb cold. They get pretty greasy above 40. But it's all trade-offs. If you want to squeeze the last bit of range out of your vehicle you probably want to run them at 40 on the highway anyway. I don't think there's much to be gained from going a lot higher than that and if you ever have to make a panic stop with tires in the high forties you'll regret that high pressure.
Lindenwood
Active Member
Welp. Done gone and done it.
We’ll see how allthis money helps these parts help while still on all-seasons for a while. Obviously, the nut behind the wheel is already GTG.
We’ll see how all
Btw that to me is a hallmark of an excellent sports suspension tuned appropriately for your roads (or road courses) - when it feels better and better the harder you push it, in terms of handling and ride....drive faster and harder and the ride literally smooths out.
The stock suspension was the opposite. It felt best driven casually, was okay at a mildly quick pace, but fell apart at a really fast pace.
Something in-between, that feels equally good slow or fast, can be excellent too depending on your goals. I would guess the Redwood GT and MPP Comfort kits fall into this category.
SK360
Member
Thank you guys so much!
FUCAs are in the cart.
I’d already been working myself up to buying the MPP Coilovers anyways, and will go ahead and grab some now (digging deeper into whether I should go Comforts or Sport).
Would I have sufficient stock adjustment to zero out toe and maintain decent rear camber for what I expect will be only 2-3 more autocross events this year (there are no tracks that I know of within hundreds of miles, so doubt I’ll get to a road coarse before next spring / summer) or will I need camber (and/or toe??) arms as well?
Funny how this for-fun $40 Autocross experiment is turning into $4000-5000 worth of parts 24 hours later
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@MasterC17
@MountainPass
I’m still on completely stock rear arms. Sitting at -1.7 rear camber and 0 toe.
MasterC17
Active Member
I still do feel that way about the base Comfort coilovers. Don't get me wrong, the Comfort's (non-adjustable) are great. But, Autocross tends to be a slippery slope, so you don't want to regret not getting the right thing off the bat, especially when you consider installation and alignment costs. So, if you think there's a chance a year from now where you will really be into this or looking to be competitive I would say get the Sports or the Comfort Adjustable. I don't yet personally have experience with the Comfort Adjustable on the 3 (only the Y), so I can't say for certain which I would prefer in your shoes, but I think really you cannot go wrong either way. I will say I feel the Sports ride better than the stock suspension to begin with.
Big +1 to going with adjustable dampers from the start given any planned track or autox use.
My M3P is a street-only family car for now, so I thought I'd dial in favorite settings on my Redwood Öhlins once and then never touch the adjusters again. I really underestimated the versatility and range of adjustable dampers.
Going through some nice miles of twisties by myself? Crank'em up into sporty territory. Daily driving around town, shared with my wife? A happy medium is good. Taking a particularly sensitive passenger for a long ride? Soften them up into comfort territory for way smoother than stock ride (except for that one caveat to stiffer springs I mentioned), still with good damping control (just softer reflexes).
This is without any track or autox in the mix. With that you'll definitely get your value's worth from having adjustment capability. I'm hoping you went for a Sport kit anyways, but if you're going with MPP Comfort be sure to get the adjustable version!
I haven't even tried the recommended track range yet.
My M3P is a street-only family car for now, so I thought I'd dial in favorite settings on my Redwood Öhlins once and then never touch the adjusters again. I really underestimated the versatility and range of adjustable dampers.
Going through some nice miles of twisties by myself? Crank'em up into sporty territory. Daily driving around town, shared with my wife? A happy medium is good. Taking a particularly sensitive passenger for a long ride? Soften them up into comfort territory for way smoother than stock ride (except for that one caveat to stiffer springs I mentioned), still with good damping control (just softer reflexes).
This is without any track or autox in the mix. With that you'll definitely get your value's worth from having adjustment capability. I'm hoping you went for a Sport kit anyways, but if you're going with MPP Comfort be sure to get the adjustable version!
I haven't even tried the recommended track range yet.
drpheta
Member
If you track or AutoX your car in any fashion, adjustable is the way the go.
They're already worth it for street only driving, but the grid really benefits grossly from adjustments.
They're already worth it for street only driving, but the grid really benefits grossly from adjustments.
For all this talk about adjusting your shocks, etc, there is an opposite view on this. Dennis Grant runs Autocross to Win, and his view on this is that there is one correct damping setting for a given car and it's springs, and more than that, the adjustments on a shock hardly ever do what you think or want, and lead to imbalanced shocks.
Just something to consider and read up about: Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page
Plus, adjusting shocks on the Model 3 is a massive pain in the butt (are you really gonna take the frunk liner out and jack up the car constantly?).
I say all of this as an owner of adjustable shocks on a Model 3. Ones that I never touch anymore, and I am seriously considering having Dyno'd to match them up.
The reason adjustables on a Model 3 are the right shocks is because the best kits sold right now all use adjustable dampers. But that's very different from the idea that you will adjust them constantly, should adjust them, or that stiffer is better for performance.
Just something to consider and read up about: Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page
Plus, adjusting shocks on the Model 3 is a massive pain in the butt (are you really gonna take the frunk liner out and jack up the car constantly?).
I say all of this as an owner of adjustable shocks on a Model 3. Ones that I never touch anymore, and I am seriously considering having Dyno'd to match them up.
The reason adjustables on a Model 3 are the right shocks is because the best kits sold right now all use adjustable dampers. But that's very different from the idea that you will adjust them constantly, should adjust them, or that stiffer is better for performance.
SK360
Member
MPP sports can be adjusted on the ground. Turned wheel to get to compression and the rears just need creative parking on a wood block to get enough rear fender gap on a lowered car to get to rebound.
Front rebound is easy with the frunk in… a drill, 3D printer and a long reach 2mm hex key to sacrifice
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