Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)

[Dan Detweiler]

SAE calls FSD level 5
Elon before called FSD level 5
Elon also called FSD drivereless

The sae levels are NOT based on features.
Automated lane change (a feature) doesn't constitutes as self driving or level 5, only driver responsibility and ODD limitations dictates the levels.

Level 2 - Driver must pay attention at all times and be ready to take over without notice.
Level 3 - Car is in complete control and driver can read books, watch movies, etc. Car alerts driver with sufficient time when it needs driver to regain control.
Level 4 - Car is in complete control and the driver can fall asleep/or be absent because the car handles all fail-safes with no expectation that the driver will take over. Car is limited to operational, geographical and weather constraints.
Level 5 - Level 4 without limits.


Elon now calls NOA which require full driver attention at all times and readiness to take over without notice, FSD.
I will let you come to your own conclusion.

Come on, you can do better than that. He was referring to the functions not the mandated regulatory requirements. How 'bout we take the statement in the context it was intended. He was referring to the features and even went on to state (as Tesla has from the beginning) that regulatory approval will happen long after the features are available.

So again Ibask, what FEATURES of Nav On Autopilot are not FSD while on the highway?

Dan

 

[Bladerskb]

Come on, you can do better than that. He was referring to the functions not the mandated regulatory requirements. How 'bout we take the statement in the context it was intended. He was referring to the features and even went on to state (as Tesla has from the beginning) that regulatory approval will happen long after the features are available.

So again Ibask, what FEATURES of Nav On Autopilot are not FSD while on the highway?

Dan

Features ARE NOT FSD or levels. Elon knows this and is trying to redefine FSD as features so he can claim to have delivered.
You know better than this. There is no such thing as FSD features.

 

[electronblue]

@Dan Detweiler By the way, I do not consider an upgrade to HW3 (if provided for free for AP2 cars) as a missed promise. Tesla did state that a computer upgrade might be needed already back in 2016. So that in itself is not a problem.

It is only if that HW3 upgraded AP2 misses the feature promises made and judging by Elon’s comments on what he now considers Full Self-driving, it seems it might be headed into breaking those promises? (Level 5, coast to coast Summon, Tesla Network...)

Certainly it already has missed promises for FSD features by summer 2017 and coast to coast demo by end of 2017...

 

[electronblue]

Features ARE NOT FSD or levels. Elon knows this and is trying to redefine FSD as features so he can claim to have delivered.
You know better than this. There is no such thing as FSD features.

Also: In Tesla defined vocabulary from 2016, Navigate on Autopilot is EAP anyway, not FSD package.

”FSD features” is OK in Tesla parlance — meaning anything beyond EAP in AP2 — ie intermediate steps. It becomes less OK when it is used to suggest AP2 as sold in 2016 would have FSD fully delivered by simply having some such features... the promise was much bigger than that...

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Also: In Tesla defined vocabulary from 2016, Navigate on Autopilot is EAP anyway, not FSD package.

”FSD features” is OK in Tesla parlance — meaning anything beyond EAP in AP2 — ie intermediate steps. It becomes less OK when it is used to suggest AP2 as sold in 2016 would have FSD fully delivered by simply having some such features... the promise was much bigger than that...

Some relevant definitions. Where was Elon's intent to deceive? Where was his statement of absolute assertion? He gave his best estimate as to requirements and timeline based on the information available to him at the time. That's not a promise, nor is it a lie.

Dan

 

[electronblue]

@Dan Detweiler Breaking a promise does not require intent to break it so at least I am not commenting on intent. That said I do think some of the promises Tesla (and Elon) made were quite irresponsible with the benefit of hindsight. With their inside knowledge they probably should have known better than my make such announcements.

As for is a promise good word, well, call them announcements or descriptions of products they were selling and taking money for. It amounts to a similar thing no matter what one calls it...

 

[emmz0r]

Also where's NoA in Europe? Coming "soon"?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

@Dan Detweiler Breaking a promise does not require intent to break it so at least I am not commenting on intent. That said I do think some of the promises Tesla (and Elon) made were quite irresponsible with the benefit of hindsight. With their inside knowledge they probably should have known better than my make such announcements.

As for is a promise good word, well, call them announcements or descriptions of products they were selling and taking money for. It amounts to a similar thing no matter what one calls it...

Sorry, but I can not remember a single time where the word promise or guarantee ever came out of Elon's mouth with regards to Autopilot or FSD. We tend to hear what we want to hear.

Dan

 

[boonedocks]

I wonder if the removal of the lane change confirmation for NoA will be the first “FSD” feature we get. They have to throw FSD buyers a bone at some point.

1: Everybody with EAP gets it so that’s not it
2: The fact that I have to keep enough “torque” on the steering wheel that if am driving myself I would be soaring across 6 lanes of traffic with the same torque
3: The fact that if I don’t do #2 I will be nagged and locked out of EAP if I don’t do so.
4; conclusion.....not the first “FSD” feature bone at all

 

[Dan Detweiler]

1: Everybody with EAP gets it so that’s not it
2: The fact that I have to keep enough “torque” on the steering wheel that if am driving myself I would be soaring across 6 lanes of traffic with the same torque
3: The fact that if I don’t do #2 I will be nagged and locked out of EAP if I don’t do so.
4; conclusion.....not the first “FSD” feature bone at all

Glass half empty kind of guy, aren't ya.

Dan

 

[electronblue]

Sorry, but I can not remember a single time where the word promise or guarantee ever came out of Elon's mouth with regards to Autopilot or FSD. We tend to hear what we want to hear.

Dan

How about ”3 months maybe, 6 months definitely” for FSD features by summer 2017?

How about announcing navigation on Autopilot exit-taking for AP1 in autumn 2016, to be released in ”8.1” in December 2016?

Just a couple of examples. Like I said, words like promise or guarantee are semantics, when you sell a product how you describe it matters.

 

[emmz0r]

Glass half empty kind of guy, aren't ya.

Dan

He's right though. This is nowhere near any features covered by FSD.

 

[Az_Rael]

1: Everybody with EAP gets it so that’s not it
2: The fact that I have to keep enough “torque” on the steering wheel that if am driving myself I would be soaring across 6 lanes of traffic with the same torque
3: The fact that if I don’t do #2 I will be nagged and locked out of EAP if I don’t do so.
4; conclusion.....not the first “FSD” feature bone at all

I am just trying to make guesses on how FSD ends up getting redefined. Because I think that is what we are seeing.

As someone who paid for the FSD upgrade, I have seen at least one thing that was supposed to be “FSD only” get rolled out to everyone: the 4 vs 8 cameras. That used to be one of the differentiators between to two systems on the sales page and one of the biggest reasons I upgraded. I wanted all 8 cameras operational, not just 4. Now EAP is using 8 cameras and you apparently didn’t need the upgrade to get that. Super.

So, sure, uncommanded lane changes was originally an EAP feature. Just like 8 cameras was originally an FSD only feature. But apparently they are now doing whatever they want, so after Elon said NoA was FSD, it makes me wonder if they will start redifining the EAP feature set too.

 

[boonedocks]

Glass half empty kind of guy, aren't ya.

Dan

No....just a realist and not blinded by Elon as many here are \i/. I take the facts as they are not change the narrative to make me feel better.

 

[Inside]

Of course it requires hands on the wheel. Regulations require it at this point. Obviously Elon was referring to the functions available with the system, not the regulatory requirements.

Dan

You are wrong. Regulations do not require hands on the wheel. BMW allows "hands off" below a certain speed on one of their cars. Cadillac allows "hands off" at any speed on one of their cars. There was a car that predated both the BMW and Cadillac by a full 4 years that allowed it as well, trying to remember the name..... oh yeah, I think it was a company called Tesla in 2015 (powered by Mobileye).

 

[Dan Detweiler]

You are wrong. Regulations do not require hands on the wheel. BMW allows "hands off" below a certain speed on one of their cars. Cadillac allows "hands off" at any speed on one of their cars. There was a car that predated both the BMW and Cadillac by a full 4 years that allowed it as well, trying to remember the name..... oh yeah, I think it was a company called Tesla in 2015 (powered by Mobileye).

Ok, great.

Enjoy your Cadi.

Dan

 

[croman]

Ok, great.

Enjoy your Cadi.

Dan

Stop trolling. Jeez. You were wrong about that and more. Read, learn, talk to experts. Tesla is hoodwinking you and you are fine with it!

 

[rnortman]

Of course it requires hands on the wheel. Regulations require it at this point. Obviously Elon was referring to the functions available with the system, not the regulatory requirements.

Wrong! Or least cite the regulations you're talking about.

Regulations (in the US at least) require a licensed driver to be responsible for operation of the vehicle. I don't think any of them require hands on wheel, and certainly none of them require that the car manufacture has any responsibility for ensuring that the driver's hands are on the wheel. They just have to provide the wheel.

 

[rnortman]

I would much rather focus on what the system CAN do at this point rather than what it CAN'T do.

This is classic Tesla Apologist Line #7 I think. Usually used toward the end of a line of losing arguments.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Stop trolling. Jeez. You were wrong about that and more. Read, learn, talk to experts.

This is classic Tesla Apologist Line #7 I think. Usually used toward the end of a line of losing arguments.

Well, thanks for that. Have a nice day.

Dan