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Near-future quarterly financial projections

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China NEV insurance registrations for last week are out. Tesla fell to 8915. Barring the possibility of fleet sales that I mentioned earlier, China sales are trending toward ~45k for December vs. 62.5k in November and 70.6k December last year. Q4 looks closer to 125k now, vs. 116k last year.

This seems to be mostly a Tesla issue. BYD had 51k registrations again last week. The latest press reports say Shanghai will run January 3-19 then shut down for Lunar New Year. Q1 is seasonally soft in China, more so this year with planned subsidy cuts, but Tesla demand has historically held up pretty well.

I get the feeling China demand at Q4 price levels is settling in at 400-500k/year. If so, they need to launch the Model 2 or whatever they call it in 2023.
In the main forum I speculated that there might be an inventory issue. Tesla CN website extended the delivery times from end of year to 1-4 weeks a few days ago. Tesla actually increased the price of cars sold in China from Nov to Dec by halving the insurance discount. It also seems that the cars ready to ship out of their dock prior to shut down are RHD cars to AUS, not giving a chance to replenish any inventory shortage for December or even Jan.

It seems that all of this was done on purpose due to the Covid wave. Also there are some PHEV incentives going away in 2023 so deliveries of those may be high for BYD. I know Shanghai will seize to allow PHEV plates to be part of the NEV plate allocation starting 2023 which will just destroy sales.
 
China NEV insurance registrations for last week are out. Tesla fell to 8915. Barring the possibility of fleet sales that I mentioned earlier, China sales are trending toward ~45k for December vs. 62.5k in November and 70.6k December last year. Q4 looks closer to 125k now, vs. 116k last year.

This seems to be mostly a Tesla issue. BYD had 51k registrations again last week. The latest press reports say Shanghai will run January 3-19 then shut down for Lunar New Year. Q1 is seasonally soft in China, more so this year with planned subsidy cuts, but Tesla demand has historically held up pretty well.

I get the feeling China demand at Q4 price levels is settling in at 400-500k/year. If so, they need to launch the Model 2 or whatever they call it in 2023.
BYD sales have historically been half hybrid. Hybrid incentive goes away at the end of the year in China.
As @Singuy mentioned, Tesla was cranking out the cars for export, see Wu Wa's videos from Dec 22.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCxAmZPvFRAc7Bvqhig57mNQ
 
In the main forum I speculated that there might be an inventory issue. Tesla CN website extended the delivery times from end of year to 1-4 weeks a few days ago. Tesla actually increased the price of cars sold in China from Nov to Dec by having insurance discount cut by half. It also seems that the cars ready to ship out of their dock prior to shut down are RHD cars to AUS, not giving a chance to replenish any inventory shortage for December or even Jan.
This is what I don't get. There is basically no inventory in the US. It seems EU is very light on inventory too. If China doesn't have any cars for sale until Jan (i.e. no inventory). How do we not hit 450k+ deliveries? If you take conservative production (F:145k + A/B:55k + S:235k = 435k), and have little-to-no inventory, you have to be at 450k deliveries at least right? There were 20k in transit in Q3...

And I agree it's hard to imagine Tesla CN would change the site to say you can't pick up a car until Jan if there were 20-30k sitting around ready for pickup that Tesla would absolutely love to sell in Q4.
 
This is what I don't get. There is basically no inventory in the US. It seems EU is very light on inventory too. If China doesn't have any cars for sale until Jan (i.e. no inventory). How do we not hit 450k+ deliveries? If you take conservative production (F:145k + A/B:55k + S:235k = 435k), and have little-to-no inventory, you have to be at 450k deliveries at least right? There were 20k in transit in Q3...

And I agree it's hard to imagine Tesla CN would change the site to say you can't pick up a car until Jan if there were 20-30k sitting around ready for pickup that Tesla would absolutely love to sell in Q4.
We see end of weeks delivery push discounts everywhere except China, which had an anti-discount. This to me screams that inventory is low.
 
This is what I don't get. There is basically no inventory in the US. It seems EU is very light on inventory too. If China doesn't have any cars for sale until Jan (i.e. no inventory). How do we not hit 450k+ deliveries? If you take conservative production (F:145k + A/B:55k + S:235k = 435k), and have little-to-no inventory, you have to be at 450k deliveries at least right? There were 20k in transit in Q3...

And I agree it's hard to imagine Tesla CN would change the site to say you can't pick up a car until Jan if there were 20-30k sitting around ready for pickup that Tesla would absolutely love to sell in Q4.
While this doesn't go against the available inventory point, the shanghai port is overflowing with vehicles and there will be a couple of ships on the high seas at eoq. Not sure we could fully draw down the extra 20k vehicles this quarter.
 
BYD sales have historically been half hybrid. Hybrid incentive goes away at the end of the year in China.
BYD NEV sales were historically 80% BEV. Starting around 2021 their PHEV sales began ramping at ridiculous rates, so they're now roughly 50/50.

I struggle to keep track of China's crazy quilt of incentives, but Tesla's main ordering page says cars delivered after 12/31 will not receive the federal subsidy. So that one at least seems to apply to BEV and PHEV alike.

As @Singuy mentioned, Tesla was cranking out the cars for export, see Wu Wa's videos from Dec 22.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCxAmZPvFRAc7Bvqhig57mNQ
Yes. When production outruns domestic demand you produce for export. Tesla did that last week, then stopped production altogether for 10 days. They will halt production again on 1/19 for Lunar New Year.

Tesla actually increased the price of cars sold in China from Nov to Dec by halving the insurance discount.
But they added an additional ¥6000 discount in early December, which more than offset that.

I know Shanghai will seize to allow PHEV plates to be part of the NEV plate allocation starting 2023 which will just destroy sales.
So BYD will only sell BEVs there. Shanghai has a couple percent of China's population. The local gov't favors the home team (Tesla, Nio, etc.). I seem to recall them also moving against Hongguang Minis when those started selling like hotcakes a couple years ago. I imagine Shenzhen has rules that favor BYD over Tesla. These kind of "trade wars" are usually a net negative for everyone, except the bureaucrats.

This is what I don't get. There is basically no inventory in the US. It seems EU is very light on inventory too. If China doesn't have any cars for sale until Jan (i.e. no inventory).
If China had no cars the order page wouldn't say:
"Orders delivered before December 31, 2022 can enjoy multiple discounts such as new energy vehicle subsidies, point rewards, and insurance subsidies. Find out about limited-time offers in December"

The link takes you to a list of four incentives (one gov't subsidy and three from Tesla) if you take delivery by 12/31.

How do we not hit 450k+ deliveries? If you take conservative production (F:145k + A/B:55k + S:235k = 435k), and have little-to-no inventory, you have to be at 450k deliveries at least right? There were 20k in transit in Q3.
I do see a little upside in Europe. But how many of those cars at the Shanghai dock will be delivered by 12/31? And where is the rest of that 235k Shanghai production?

Tesla never shows all their inventory. And they have an extremely strong incentive to hold US cars off the market this month and sell them with $7500 of extra margin in January. It's a balancing act, of course, they don't want inventory to grow dramatically. But the market understands the reason to delay deliveries, especially if Tesla says January will break all known records.
 
BYD NEV sales were historically 80% BEV. Starting around 2021 their PHEV sales began ramping at ridiculous rates, so they're now roughly 50/50.

I struggle to keep track of China's crazy quilt of incentives, but Tesla's main ordering page says cars delivered after 12/31 will not receive the federal subsidy. So that one at least seems to apply to BEV and PHEV alike.


Yes. When production outruns domestic demand you produce for export. Tesla did that last week, then stopped production altogether for 10 days. They will halt production again on 1/19 for Lunar New Year.


But they added an additional ¥6000 discount in early December, which more than offset that.


So BYD will only sell BEVs there. Shanghai has a couple percent of China's population. The local gov't favors the home team (Tesla, Nio, etc.). I seem to recall them also moving against Hongguang Minis when those started selling like hotcakes a couple years ago. I imagine Shenzhen has rules that favor BYD over Tesla. These kind of "trade wars" are usually a net negative for everyone, except the bureaucrats.


If China had no cars the order page wouldn't say:
"Orders delivered before December 31, 2022 can enjoy multiple discounts such as new energy vehicle subsidies, point rewards, and insurance subsidies. Find out about limited-time offers in December"

The link takes you to a list of four incentives (one gov't subsidy and three from Tesla) if you take delivery by 12/31.


I do see a little upside in Europe. But how many of those cars at the Shanghai dock will be delivered by 12/31? And where is the rest of that 235k Shanghai production?

Tesla never shows all their inventory. And they have an extremely strong incentive to hold US cars off the market this month and sell them with $7500 of extra margin in January. It's a balancing act, of course, they don't want inventory to grow dramatically. But the market understands the reason to delay deliveries, especially if Tesla says January will break all known records.
All the Tesla discounts equate to like 1400 dollars, the smallest end of year discount of most of the world. And they have highest margins deliverying cars in China too. Makes no sense.
 
I get the feeling China demand at Q4 price levels is settling in at 400-500k/year. If so, they need to launch the Model 2 or whatever they call it in 2023.
TeslaDaily (Rob) had a graphic a few days (weeks?) back - that showed volume vs price. Tesla was sitting in an island all by itself among all those competitor models. High price, High volume.

They do need to introduce cheaper models.
 
Here are the Q4 delivery estimates I've gathered so far in advance of the reporting on Jan 2. As usual it will be fun to see how comes closest. @The Accountant I think you use Troy's number of 428K?

Rob Maurer434.1K
@Troy428K
Tesla Economist430K
@petit_bateau442.7K 462.7K (ggr edit)
James Stephenson420.1K
Matt Smith (Good Soil)440K
Gary Black420K
@Todesbuckler423.5K
Street Consensus (According to Gary Black)420.8K
Average428.8K 431K (ggr calc)
 
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Here are the Q4 delivery estimates I've gathered so far in advance of the reporting on Jan 2. As usual it will be fun to see how comes closest. @The Accountant I think you use Troy's number of 428K?

Rob Maurer434.1K
@Troy428K
Tesla Economist430K
@petit_bateau442.7K
James Stephenson420.1K
Matt Smith (Good Soil)440K
Gary Black420K
@Todesbuckler423.5K
Street Consensus (According to Gary Black)420.8K
Average428.8K
Troy is now at 424k and he has a final update coming tomorrow.
You can put me down for 427k
 
Here are the Q4 delivery estimates I've gathered so far in advance of the reporting on Jan 2. As usual it will be fun to see how comes closest. @The Accountant I think you use Troy's number of 428K?

Rob Maurer434.1K
@Troy428K
Tesla Economist430K
@petit_bateau442.7K
James Stephenson420.1K
Matt Smith (Good Soil)440K
Gary Black420K
@Todesbuckler423.5K
Street Consensus (According to Gary Black)420.8K
Average428.8K
I think you have a typo in for me, no idea where that came in. Should be 462,706. And maybe 14 Semis to make it 462,720 delivered. So I guess I am the optimistic outlier at the end of the quarter even though I was mostly below the projections of others at the start of the quarter.

1672434546165.png
 
I think you have a typo in for me, no idea where that came in. Should be 462,706. And maybe 14 Semis to make it 462,720 delivered. So I guess I am the optimistic outlier at the end of the quarter even though I was mostly below the projections of others at the start of the quarter.

View attachment 890519
I am optimistic too and think you are in the right ballpark. Think you are too low on the Semi deliveries but have nothing factual to point to. :)
 
I think the probability of 450-460k deliveries is severely underpriced by the market/analysts. That's a little higher than my base case, but I think it's the most mispriced (hence why I have some calls for next week). One factor I just have no visibility into is rumors/discussion around some of the last ships set to arrive in Q4 being late, which could throw off an otherwise relatively simple inventory analysis.

I'd say 445k +/-5k deliveries on 450k production.
 
I think you have a typo in for me, no idea where that came in. Should be 462,706. And maybe 14 Semis to make it 462,720 delivered. So I guess I am the optimistic outlier at the end of the quarter even though I was mostly below the projections of others at the start of the quarter.

View attachment 890519
It was a typo - Sorry about that - will try and edit it. (update - too much time passed - can't edit it.)
 
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Troy puts a lot of work into these estimates, and he's built a good track record. Some so-called bulls have shot the messenger lately because they don't like the data he finds. I long ago deferred to his superior effort, but I still cross-check where I can. I didn't find any holes in his work this time, except the possibility I mentioned earlier of Tesla stuffing a 3rd party channel in China (sales that might bypass the December insurance registration data Troy uses).

Troy's 417k analyst consensus number came from Tesla's Martin Viecha, who works behind the scenes to nudge outlier analysts into line so Tesla won't "miss estimates". I've separately seen consensus reported as 429k, which I suspect was "pre-nudge". Or perhaps it includes a couple of high outliers that Martin excluded (some bears in the past put out absurdly high numbers to pull the average up so Tesla would "miss estimates"). Note that Troy's data-driven 423k is right in the middle of Martin's "designed to be beaten" 417k and the stale or "designed to be missed" 429k.

I'll be very surprised if Troy is off by more than a couple percent.
 
Troy puts a lot of work into these estimates, and he's built a good track record. Some so-called bulls have shot the messenger lately because they don't like the data he finds. I long ago deferred to his superior effort, but I still cross-check where I can. I didn't find any holes in his work this time, except the possibility I mentioned earlier of Tesla stuffing a 3rd party channel in China (sales that might bypass the December insurance registration data Troy uses).

Troy's 417k analyst consensus number came from Tesla's Martin Viecha, who works behind the scenes to nudge outlier analysts into line so Tesla won't "miss estimates". I've separately seen consensus reported as 429k, which I suspect was "pre-nudge". Or perhaps it includes a couple of high outliers that Martin excluded (some bears in the past put out absurdly high numbers to pull the average up so Tesla would "miss estimates"). Note that Troy's data-driven 423k is right in the middle of Martin's "designed to be beaten" 417k and the stale or "designed to be missed" 429k.

I'll be very surprised if Troy is off by more than a couple percent.
Given that other Chinese EV makers showed moderate to strong m/m growth in Dec delivery and Tesla SH chose to reduce production in Dec despite offering incentives, what do you guys feel CN margin looks like? Did Tesla decide against to more incentives at the cost of CN margin?